University of Texas at San Antonio Archives and Special Collections
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Gustav Pantzer, Interview I, February 20, 2007
BEGIN SIDE ONE, TAPE THREE
Tellez: My name is Lisa Tellez. Today’s date is February 20, 2007. Today I’ll be continuing my interview with Gustav A. Pantzer. Also present today are Pam James, and her son, Brett James. The interview is taking place in Mr. Pantzer’s home in San Antonio, Texas. Mr. Pantzer, do I have your permission to record this interview today?
Pantzer: Yes, ma’am.
Tellez: Thank you. Okay. Last time when we were talking we left off— The last thing we talked about was Rosa Liepknecht. I asked you some questions about her. So, moving on to our next question, I was going to ask you to tell me again about your trip over on the boat, and I believe you said it was the S.S. Berlin.
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: Okay. Tell me everything you remember about that trip so that people who read about it will be able to visualize it.
Pantzer: It took nine days on the ship.
Tellez: Nine days. So how did you occupy your time on the trip? What did you do during those nine days?
Pantzer: Well, they had shuffleboard and all sorts of games, you know. You read; you kept yourself busy.
Tellez: What class did you stay in?
Pantzer: Third class. The ticket was 110 dollars.
Tellez: Wow! You still remember that. That’s great.
Pantzer: And that included three days hotel accommodations in the city of Brenham. That was included in that [price].
Tellez: And did that include your meals?
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
2
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: What kind of people were on the boat with you?
Pantzer: Well, I think most of them were immigrants in third class. First and second class were tourists. We were the people’s people—but all nice people. Yeah. One was refused admission into this country. She was a woman, she had children with her, and she had a lot of [male] company. And I had a girlfriend aboard ship, and I found out from her afterwards that [the woman with children] was sent back. They wouldn’t let her land here.
Tellez: Why not? Do you know?
Pantzer: Well, she had too many man friends. You know what they did? They looked at your fingers and your hands, and they could tell then if you had any sex disease. Yeah. You didn’t get a full physical—just your hands. And that’s what they told me afterwards at a sanitation course, that [when] you have help come in, look at their hands. The hands are a giveaway for many things.
Tellez: Wow, that’s interesting.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: So did they believe that the woman had a sexually transmitted disease?
Pantzer: I don’t know. But the lady friend I met aboard ship—we became friends, and we saw each other quite often afterwards—she told me that this particular person with the two children was refused admission into this country. They sent her back.
Tellez: Oh, I see. Wow, poor lady.
Pantzer: Yeah. [chuckle] You gotta behave yourself no matter where you are.
Tellez: I remember you saying that the day you set foot on American soil was your fondest memory of your whole life, and your brother was there to greet you and your first words were “halleluiah!” when you saw him. I believe right after that ya’ll let to eat an ice cream cone. But I forgot to ask you about the food on the boat before you landed. What kind of food did y’all eat on the boat?
Pantzer: It was mostly Americanized food already. They got us used to the American diet, such as rare or medium rare roast beef. In Europe everything is well done. And then they brought the rare roast beef to the table [and] we refused to accept it. And the steward said, “You wait! You’ll see more of that once you’re over there.”
[laughter]
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
3
Tellez: So, what did you think about the American food when you first began eating it?
Pantzer: Well, it was all right. They fed us corn. But over on the other side they used to give the corn to the pigs. But that’s different corn. The corn we eat here is not what they give to the pigs over there.
Tellez: Oh, okay.
Pantzer: Yeah, that’s [the] difference in corn—one for human consumption, one for animal consumption.
Tellez: Did you like the corn?
Pantzer: Oh, yes! Yes, yes. Well, I’ll tell you, at that part of the game I liked any food.
Tellez: That’s right, because you had such a shortage before you left Berlin.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay. Now, when got here, and after you left the boat and had an ice cream with your brother, what did you do your first day here, after that?
Pantzer: The what?
Tellez: What did you do your first day there [in New York] after y’all went to get an ice cream?
Pantzer: The first day after?
Tellez: Yes, sir, when you arrived.
Pantzer: Well, that was Saturday. We had Sunday, [during] which we straightened out our new apartment. And then Monday I went downtown. We had a fellow living with us and he sent me to the German newspaper to get him a camera. This was on a Monday. He said to me, “You take the subway, get off on the bridge, and you [won’t] have any problem. You’ll see the building right there. Okay? So on [to] the subway I go. I got up on the bridge, but I didn’t see the building. So, I got a cab. I said to the taxi driver, “I want to go to the Staats Zeitung,” which is the newspaper. He said, “Okay, hop in.”
Tellez: What was the name of the newspaper?
Pantzer: Staats Zeitung.
Tellez: Could you spell that please?
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
4
Pantzer: S_T_double A_T_S—that’s one word. The next word is capital Z_E_I_T_U_N_G.
Tellez: Okay, so that was a German newspaper.
Pantzer: Yeah, it was a German newspaper.
Tellez: Just one moment.
____________ … (1 minute, 10 seconds)
Pantzer: I didn’t see the building, so I took a taxi. And I told him I wanted to go to the Southside. And he says, “Okay, come on in.” He took me downtown, he took me here and there, and then he left me at the same spot where I got in from. He said, “There it is.”
Tellez: Oh, no!
[laughter]
Pantzer: He took me downtown to the [inaudible]. I had a good view of Broadway. And he left me off [at] the same spot [where he picked me up]! He said, “there it is.” [chuckle]
Tellez: I guess he was taking you for a ride in more ways than one.
Pantzer: Yeah, he took me for a ride.
[laughter]
Tellez: You said y’all had a new apartment. So was this one that you and your brothers were moving into together? Cause you said they got there before you. So they were living somewhere else before that then.
Pantzer: Yes, they had a smaller place. But when they knew I was coming, and they knew my mother was going to come with the other brother, they took a larger apartment. So we had it all set up.
Tellez: Now, the apartment you lived in, there was more than one floor in that apartment building?
Pantzer: Yes. On the top floor, no less. There was no elevator. You had to climb the stairs.
Tellez: How many flights?
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
5
Pantzer: Four flights. That was the cheapest rent, on [the] top floor.
Tellez: I seem to remember you saying that was in Uptown New York.
Pantzer: The what?
Tellez: Uptown New York, did you say?
Pantzer: It was in the Bronx. That’s Uptown, yes.
Tellez: Who were your neighbors in the apartment building? I think you said you had Jewish neighbors, and y’all used to play pinochle.
Pantzer: Yes!
Tellez: Can you tell me a little bit more about your neighbors? What do you remember about them?
Pantzer: About who?
Tellez: Your neighbors in the apartment building.
Pantzer: Regular people, you know. There was nothing [out of ] the ordinary.
Tellez: So do you remember any individual personalities?
Pantzer: No, they were all regular people.
Tellez: Okay, I wanted to ask you about that because I know that in those days—especially in places where there were a lot of new immigrants—a lot of times neighborhoods were segregated ethnically. Different religious groups, different races, were separated into different neighborhoods.
Pantzer: Yeah. We never experienced anything like that in all our lives.
Tellez: Okay. So basically, there were lots of different kinds of people in your neighborhood?
Pantzer: Yes. We were all [treated] alike.
Tellez: Okay. That’s really nice. Now, when your mother moved over here to the United States, did she continue to live with all of you, or did she eventually…
Pantzer: No, she stayed with us until she died.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
6
Tellez: Tell me a little bit about your apartment. What was it like, and what was it like living there?
Pantzer: The apartment?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Well, the feature that struck me [most] was a dumbwaiter. You know what a dumbwaiter is?
Tellez: Yes, sir, but describe that.
Pantzer: By the kitchen, [there’s] a shaft, and on the shaft there’s a shelf. And if you want to put anything downstairs like garbage or anything, you put it on there and pull the cord [and] it goes down. And then the janitor will pick it up and put it in the garbage. Or, if you have anything heavy to carry up, you put it in the dumbwaiter and then when you come up there you pull it up and there it is. Yeah, that’s why they call it a “dumbwaiter.”
[laughter]
Tellez: And so I take it that was the first time you had seen that.
Pantzer: That was the first time I had seen that.
Tellez: And what did you see from your apartment. When you looked out the windows, what would you see?
Pantzer: Other apartments. [chuckle]
Tellez: Other apartments!
[laughter]
Tellez: So they were very close together.
Pantzer: Yes! Yes, very thickly populated.
Tellez: Okay. And what did y’all do for leisure when you had spare time and you wanted to go do something fun? What would you go do?
Pantzer: Oh, well, we were near NYU [New York University]. And we used to go over there quite a bit because they had beautiful gardens, and they had a big, beautiful library. We took advantage of that. And once a week the Goldman Band used to come! And play up the evenings on the campus of the NYU.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
7
Tellez: Which band?
Pantzer: The Goldman Band. They played in Central Park once a week, and once a week Uptown where we were. And then we had parks nearby. We would walk and go to the library. Well, we all went to evening school—the whole bunch. That took time. We went to the Theodore Roosevelt High School, evenings. So that didn’t leave you much time for anything else.
Tellez: What were you studying in night school?
Pantzer: Business English, typing, and history. Those were evening classes.
Tellez: And how about your— Did you have to take classes to get your citizenship?
Pantzer: No, no. They gave you— You have to take out your first paper. Right? And then they give you a book about American history. And you better study that book!
[The housekeeper knocks at the door.]
__________…(1 minute, 15 seconds)
Pantzer: With your first paper, you get a book on American history. And you better know the answers when you want to become a citizen—your second paper. And it’s just remarkable, all the information [that’s] in that little book. And the first time you went to vote, you better know the answer[s] too! Because they would ask you questions. Yes, it was quite different [than] what it is now.
Tellez: So I assume you answered all the questions correctly, or enough that you were able to vote. You didn’t have to retake the test or anything for your citizenship.
Pantzer: Yeah, you have to know the structure of the American government and the history. That is part of the requirement to become a citizen—in those days. I don’t know how it is now.
Tellez: So how long after you got here did [it take] you to get your citizenship?
Pantzer: You get your first paper after being here one year. So I was here one year, and I got my first paper. You got the second paper after you were here five years. So I was here five years, and I got my second paper—right on time. [chuckle] I didn’t waste any time.
Tellez: Did you feel welcome when you first got to the United States?
Pantzer: Did I feel welcome?
Tellez: Yes, sir. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
8
Pantzer: I felt right at home!
Tellez: Okay. And did you and your neighbors ever try each other’s cultural foods and things from the different places? I assume some of your neighbors came from other places. They weren’t all German immigrants, correct?
Pantzer: I lost you.
Tellez: Were some of your neighbors from other places besides…
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: And did y’all sample each other’s foods and things like that? Did your mother ever cook German food for some of the people who weren’t German?
Pantzer: We were all one. There was no class distinction. There was no sense of “I’m this, and you’re that.” We were all one.
Tellez: Oh, that’s really nice. That’s nice. Looks like we’re going backwards. People pay a lot more attention to that now.
Pantzer: The only difference [was] when I came I spoke the Oxford English, you see. And my brother objected to that. He said, “This is America! Get off your high horse and speak English.”
[laughter]
Tellez: How long did it take you to get used to speaking—
Pantzer: Well, it took about six months or so.
Tellez: That’s fast.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Your first job—and I think you said it was IT&T [International Telephone and Telegraph].
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: Okay. Tell me about that. How did you get the job and what did you do?
Pantzer: Well, I was referred to the superintendent of… At the time it was a commercial cable company, which was owned Clarence H. MaCaine. Have you ever heard of him? Well it’s a very interesting family. His father came over and they MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
9
discovered gold. They became very rich. And Clarence H. Mackay started the Commercial Cable Company, which is a cable going to Europe under [the] sea, for communication. Okay? You send electric impulses through that cable and they pick it up on the other side. And there is your cablegram—your message. Okay? You with me?
Tellez: Yes, sir—like a telegraph.
Pantzer: Okay. Yeah. Now, his daughter [Ellen Mackay] married a Jewish man—a fellow who composed quite a bit [of] beautiful music, such as “God Bless America.” What’s his name?
Tellez: Oh, I don’t know.
Pam James: I know, I know! Irving Berlin!
Pantzer: Right! Well, his daughter married Irving Berlin. And Irving Berlin was a boy from Russia. His name wasn’t Berlin. His name was something else—I forgot. [Irving Berlin was born as Israel Isidore, Baline on May 11, 1888.] But anyway, he became a millionaire. And Clarence H. Mackay objected to that marriage and wouldn’t have any part of the daughter [whom he disinherited]. But then, Clarence H. Mackay was bought out by IT&T [International Telephone and Telegraph]. And somehow or another he lost all his money. And you know who helped him out? Irving Berlin!
Tellez: Oh, wow!
[laugher]
Tellez: So did [Mackay] make amends with [Berlin] after that?
Pantzer: Yeah. Then, it became IT&T. But I started with Commercial Cable, and then went over to IT&T. They had their own building.
Pam James: Uncle Gus, did you ever meet Mr. MacKay?
Pantzer: Yes. He had a chauffer, and he drove up in a Rolls Royce. But he wouldn’t go up in the passenger car. He would go up in the freight elevator. He didn’t want to rub elbows with everybody and anybody. And he had his offices there. But somehow or another he lost out. I don’t want to go into the details [of] why; it’s only a rumor, and I don’t know. But the fact is, he turned out to be a poor man. And Irving Berlin helped him out. Oh, yeah, I met him several times. He said, “Hello.” Nice man, nice mustache—not too big. But, his father was the one who made the fortune. And the son didn’t know how to hold on to it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, then I got with IT&T [International Telephone and Telegraph] then. IT&T took over Commercial Cable Company. So then we became IT&T, which was owned by Colonel Sosthenes Behn. There were two MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
10
brothers. And now that was a big outfit—all over the world. All over the world! And Communication Telephone South America, they had all rights over telephone.
Tellez: Wow. That was big.
Pantzer: Yeah, all over the world. It was a big, big outfit.
Tellez: And what did you do there?
Pantzer: Well, first I went to school there, but then we had a crash—in 1929, in the fall. And they closed up the school. The stock market crashed. Did you ever hear that?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: That was a big crash. IT&T [International Telephone and Telegraph] stock was a 140 something, and it went down to four. And a lot of people bought on margin, and that was one of the reasons why we had this depression, which was bad. It was bad for them, but not bad for me because [it] was their paradise. But the school was closed, so they said to me, “Well, what are you gonna do?” And I said, “Well, I don’t know what I’m gonna do.” He said, “Well, you speak a few languages.” [I said], “Well, I’ll get by.” So they put me in what they call, “customer service.” So, I had a desk with four telephones, and I said “hello” all day long, [and] what have you, which was very interesting. You know, you get a cablegram, and there’s some answers they need. What do they do? They call customer service. As a matter of fact, I think IT&T’s finished too, because that sort of communication is a thing of the past. It’s all now in the skies, turnstile. Yeah. So, that’s what I did. And now comes the change. There was a man— There was a small kitchen. And after midnight, he was paid two hours overtime to provide the midnight staff with a light lunch so they didn’t have to leave the building, you see. Okay? Well, he was ready to give up. So I said, “Walter, what kind of equipment do you have there?” I says, “How much is that worth?” He says, “Oh, about fifty dollars.” I said, “Well, if I can take over, I’ll gladly do that and give you fifty dollars.” “But,” he said, “you have to clear that with the company.” And they accepted me. So I got two hours overtime every night and I worked four to midnight, and at midnight I opened the kitchen. But I stayed there for two or three hours. And I served just sandwiches and coffee. Well, it didn’t take long, and suddenly the kitchen got a little bigger. And it wasn’t just serving the midnight shift; someone had already took care of the evening shift too. And before [you] know it, I had to hire help. So this thing expanded quite a bit because we served entirely different things [from those] the fellow before me [served]. And so then, one fine day the VP [vice president], he said to me, “How would you like to have part of the fourth floor for a restaurant?” I said, “That sounds all right.” He says, “Can you handle that?” I said, “Yes.” [He said], “Okay, you gotta see so-and-so.” We laid out the fourth floor. Have you ever been there, Pam?
Pam James: No. I saw the building.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
11
Pantzer: Your daddy was. So, I got part of the fourth floor, and we laid it out real nice, but I had to buy all the equipment. I wanted to buy all [the] equipment, because I wanted to be independent. I got a very nice dining room, but I said, “I’ll stay with the company a little while yet to see first how this thing works out. [chuckle] If this thing doesn’t work out, I’ll still have a job in the company.” And I hired people. I had at the time about ten people working for me. Well, this thing mushroomed again. Sometimes we had clients out to the elevator. So I said, “Well, I think I’m going to take a leave of absence from the company.” And they gave me the leave of absence. And then I got into the restaurant business completely.
Tellez: Did you keep [the restaurant] in the building, or did you move?
Pantzer: No, right there on the fourth floor, inside the building.
Tellez: What was the name of your restaurant?
Pantzer: “Gus’.” And you know how it got it’s name? I was in the elevator [and] there were some people there—I didn’t know them and they didn’t know me—and one fellow said to the other, “Oh, let’s go to Gus’.” I says, “okay.” That’s why I called it “Gus’.”
Tellez: So it was just G_U_S?
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay.
Pantzer: But there were 36 stories in that building. And I had quite a few real good customers, like Mertz Steamship Company, and manufacturer Strauss—quite a few people. So, we stayed open 24 hours a day.
Tellez: What kind of food did you serve?
Pantzer: International. Now you should ask me, “Why were you able to serve that food? How were you able to do that?”
Tellez: Okay, how were you able to do that?
[laughter]
Pantzer: Well, as I said, Colonel Behn, the owner of the whole shebang, he had a private dining room, which was very exclusive, which was only for dignitaries from all over the world. And I saw a flag from South America flying up there and [I] knew, “Uh, oh, the president of that company is here in residence.” Well, he had a medal chef. You know what a medal chef is?
Tellez: No, sir. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
12
Pantzer: Well, he’s the chef of the chefs, who won medals in exhibitions, and so on. And he was a German man. And I contacted him. Well, he would come two hours every day. And he taught me for weeks how to cook—what to do. But he was the grouchiest son-of-a-gun you ever saw in all your life!
[laughter]
Pantzer: He was terrible! But he knew his business. When we have a roast beef in the oven, you usually want to know if it’s rare, but he didn’t put a thermometer in there or anything. He’d just squeeze it. He’d tell you, “this is rare, this is medium, this is well done.” Feeling it— That’s the kind of guy he was. He knew his business. But he was a grouch! Oh! He really was. I hated the time when I saw him. But he knew his business.
Tellez: And did you learn to squeeze the meat like that and [see] if it was done?
Pantzer: Yeah, I could do that.
Tellez: Wow.
Pantzer: You could do that too. It’s the response of the meat. See, the meat talks to you. If it’s rare, it’s soft. If it’s medium it has a little body to it. If it’s well done it’s very firm. It’s as simple as that.
Tellez: Oh, okay.
Pantzer: [chuckle] Yeah, but don’t burn your fingers!
[laughter]
Pantzer: Yeah, so that was it.
Tellez: What was the name of the building that it was in?
Pantzer: IT&T [International Telephone and Telegraph]
Tellez: Do you remember the address?
Pantzer: 67 Broad.
Pam James: Broad, or Broadway?
Pantzer: No, no. Broad. Broadway is something else. Broadway isn’t far from there.
Pam James: Uncle Gus, was it that really strange shaped building across from Stanton Island? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
13
Pantzer: Yeah
Pam James: It had a really strange shape to it and it’s across from Stanton Island.
Pantzer: Yes
Pam James: Is that the IT&T building?
Pantzer: Yes, you could see it from the ferry. It was a beautiful building. Actually, it was two buildings combined into one. And I had to go to the building department once to get a permit. You know, once you get into business, you need also some permits. And the guys go, “Oh, yeah, that’s the building they made one out of two”—the fellows at city hall from the building department.
Tellez: And the two, you say, took up the whole block?
Pantzer: Yeah, it took up the whole block.
Tellez: Wow. There must have been a lot of people working there.
Pantzer: A lot of people! And we went there a few years ago, and the neighborhood has changed so much. The building is a dilapidated building! They had a beautiful main entrance with beautiful paintings of the globe—you know, the world. It was all just boarded up with cheap plywood. IT&T had moved out, because they went out of business. They went to New Jersey for a little while, and the whole neighborhood was dilapidated. The stock exchange is not too far from there. And we had a produce exchange right there in the building. It was all gone. Beverly went with us and Betsy’s son, Frankie, he drove us. Yeah.
Tellez: Mr. Pantzer, so that we’ll know, when did you open your restaurant and how long was it open?
Pantzer: Twenty-four hours, except Sunday. We closed Saturday nights at eight o’clock, and reopened Monday mornings at six o’clock.
Tellez: Okay, and what year did you open your restaurant?
Pantzer: Well now, this place—now that we are in the restaurant—1945.
Tellez: How long did you have this restaurant?
Pantzer: It stayed open till 1970. And many times we had 14 and 16 employees, because we had three shifts, mind you. Three shifts—a day shift, an evening shift, and a night shift, which was a headache—a real headache.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
14
Tellez: How so?
Pantzer: Well, I didn’t get rich on it, because I had to keep my prices down. Right? But I made a good living. But I spent it all too.
Tellez: Did you hire women also, or was it just men working there [at the restaurant]?
Pantzer: It was all men. When times got bad, I had to take women, because we pushed coffee wagons through the building. You know, wagons with coffee urns? We take them right to the desks. I approached the firms. I said, “Hey, you people don’t have time for the staff that like to take a coffee break, you know—for fifteen minutes which turns out to be half an hour.” I said, “I’ll bring the coffee right to your desks.” They said, “Okay, let’s try it.” [It] worked out fine. But it was hard to get help, so I hired one woman. And she was pretty good, but she must have eaten a watermelon, because she showed signs of a watermelon. I said, “Say, are you expecting?” She says, “Yes, but I got at least four weeks to go.” I said, “Well, you better stay home.” [She said,] “Oh no, I’m feeling fine!” I said, “You don’t come back tomorrow.” She said, “Oh, I got four weeks.
Pam James: Uncle Gus, did Aunt Katie cook anything for the restaurant at home?
Pantzer: Yes. She made her famous open apple and plum cake. You know, the big sheets—open plum, peach. And I remember, the evening shift came in about three o’clock, and we had the sheets out there, you know. And they would grab it just like that! Cause they knew what was good. I remember one black girl, she said, “Well you took four pieces and I don’t get any!” I said, “Honey, you come back tomorrow. I’ll save you some.” And I did. Yeah, yeah, she did that.
Tellez: I take it then your restaurant also served African American people?
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes!
Tellez: Okay, I was going to ask you about that. Cause you know, back then sometimes—not so much in the North, but in the South—it was very segregated.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah. We had one special for each nationality every day. Like, a specialty for the Germans, for the Italian, for the English, and for the Irish. So they knew if they wanted cold beef and cabbage, you go to Gus’ on a Thursday. That was called beef and cabbage—besides all the other schmeer. But that was it. Mondays was fresh ham and pig’s knuckles. If they wanted to go with fresh ham, they would go on a Monday. They knew where it was. It worked out all right.
Tellez: Wow. That was smart.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Did you play any music in your restaurant? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
15
Pantzer: No. Sometimes the place was so busy during the lunch hours that I had to take the ashtrays from the tables to make them move. If they had music at the tables they would sit, sit, sit.
[laughter]
Pantzer: So you had to ease them out, in a kind way, you know. You know, did you ever hear of Macy’s?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Well there’s a big Macy’s in New York. And they have a restaurant down there and they have the same restaurant three blocks away from there. But Macy’s, this place close to Macy’s, they charged fifty percent more [than] what the other place charged. It’s the same food—everything the same—but they charged fifty percent more. Why? Because the shopping people who came down from Macy’s with their bundles, they would sit and gab, gab, gab, gab, and they take up the time. And a table has to turn out twice every hour, but they would sit there for a whole hour and more. So they had to pay for it.
Tellez: Oh, okay.
Pantzer: Yeah. Location is a big item.
Pam James: What was the most profitable item on your menu?
Pantzer: Fishcakes! That was the most profitable. And iced tea. You know how to make fishcakes?
Pam James: Yeah.
Pantzer: You buy a box of shredded cod and you mix it with a little egg and mashed potatoes, and some breadcrumbs. And you deep fry it, and there it is. Cost you probably five cents a fishcake.
Tellez: That does sound good.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: Hold on one second, Mr. Pantzer. Let me turn the tape over so I don’t run out.
Pam James: You know what, we’re going to have to go. Uncle Gus…
END OF SIDE ONE, TAPE THREE
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
16
___________...(2 minutes, 30 seconds)
BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE THREE
Tellez: Okay, Mr. Pantzer, now you were saying that you… You explained how you made the fishcakes, and you were saying that was the most profitable item on your menu.
Pantzer: Yeah, and iced tea.
Tellez: I’d like to get back to the lady, the one who was expecting—the waitress.
Pantzer: The what?
Tellez: The waitress who was expecting. Did she ever come back to work?
Pantzer: Oh, no, no.
Tellez: No?
Pantzer: No. I had to— No, she was a nice girl. She was honest. That was an important thing, to get honest people. Especially when you let them loose with the coffee wagon, with the coffee urn, and also with some Danish pastries. And they’re on their own. Right? And you have to depend on their honesty. The manager of one of the offices called me one day. He said, “Gus, your coffee is terrible.” I says, “How come? It’s the same formula.” He says, “When you come up once, at ten o’clock, and go in the slop sink, there’s your wagon.” I said, “What the heck is it doing there?” Well, the kid was selling the coffee [and] he added more water to it and put the money in his pocket.
Tellez: Oh, that’s terrible.
Pantzer: And that’s why the coffee was no good. So that’s the kind of things you had to contend with. Yeah. It’s a tough racket, that restaurant business.
Tellez: I bet. Hard work too. Well, let’s move back, now, cause we’re getting ahead of ourselves. When you first got here, how long was it before you met your wife, Katie?
Pantzer: I met my wife in 1934. We got married in 1936. That’s right. Yeah. We were courting for two years.
Tellez: How did you meet her?
Pantzer: At some party. Some fellow at the place said, “You wanna meet some girls?” I said, “Sure! I’d like to meet some girls.”
[laughter] MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
17
Pantzer: So we went to a party. I think it was a village some place. And they were nice people there. And there she was. And I had to speak German. So we talked, and after a while I said, “Could I meet you again?” She said, “Maybe.” [chuckle] Well, we met again. Yeah, we met again for almost sixty years.
Tellez: That is a long time!
Pantzer: Yeah
Tellez: How many children did y’all have, Mr. Pantzer?
Pantzer: We had three, but we lost one. At the time they didn’t know about the RH factor. You know what the RH factor is?
Tellez: I can’t remember, Mr. Pantzer
Pantzer: Well, your blood has different types of blood. Type O, which is the general, and type A and the RH factor. And they don’t match. But when [Katie] was carrying the third baby she needed a blood transfusion, [so] they took my blood. And I’m negative and she’s positive. And the baby was born jaundiced. And at the time they didn’t know what to do, so the baby didn’t last more than six months.
Tellez: Oh, I’m sorry.
Pantzer: Yeah, it’s the positive and the negative.
Tellez: I knew I had heard about the RH factor before, but I couldn’t remember it at all.
Pantzer: That’s right. When you have any ID on you, you should show your RH factor on your ID—if you’re type O blood, for instance. You also should show your RH factor. Yeah, yeah, it’s very important, cause you never know what happens if you need a blood transfusion. They gotta know what kind of blood you need.
Tellez: That’s right.
Pantzer: The RH factor. There’s minus, and there’s plus. And they do not match.
Tellez: Okay. Now, we’ll get back to your family in just a little bit, but I don’t want to get too far ahead of the time period we’re in. What was the Great Depression like for you? Talk to me a little bit about how the great depression affected you.
Pantzer: Well, that was now 1929, and the IT&T [International Telephone and Telegraph] didn’t fire anybody. But they cut the work down [to] three days a week, instead of six days a week. So everybody still had a job. But it was cut in half. See, in those days you work six days a week. You worked Saturdays. But, business was almost MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
18
at a standstill. So I had three days a week I didn’t know what to do. Right? And Pamela [James] reminded me, a fellow came and said to me, “Why don’t you get yourself two satchels and fill them up with knives—restaurant knives, butcher knives, cleavers, brushes, whatever a butcher needs—and go from store to store and see what you can do?” I said, “Boy, that sounds pretty good!” [He said,] “There’s a wholesale house [in] New York called [inaudible]. And I came with my two satchels and A1 merchandise, imported from Sweden. A1 merchandise. And I went from butcher to butcher. And I did all right. Yeah—until I got to the German neighborhood on 86th Street. They were the cheapest, cheaty, mising son-of-a-guns I ever met! [chuckle] There was one big Dutchman. Oh boy, he got me mad! He says, “Well let me see what you got there.” So me, like a young fellow, showed him. He said, “I’ll give you ten dollars for the whole shebang.” He had it all figured out. I would make a half a dollar on the whole business. I says, “You keep your ten dollars and I’ll keep my knives. Goodbye.” Yeah. And you know, the best customers was the Jewish butchers. Yes, ma’am. And the kids when I walked in [said], “Hey, tell him to buy a brush with a handle on it.” You know the old time butcher block? Well, you had to scrub it [with] a steel brush. And the kids said, “Hey sell him a brush with a handle on it so we don’t hurt our hands.” Yeah. They were the best customers. It worked out all right.
Tellez: Good. So you managed to make ends meet.
Pantzer: Yeah. I did it for quite a while. Yeah.
Tellez: At that time were you dating? Did you have a girlfriend?
Pantzer: I don’t know. I think I met a girl here or there. We would go for a dance, or whatever—nothing serious or important.
Tellez: Okay. Nobody who ever really struck your fancy.
Pantzer: Yeah, we were busy and helped the brothers. We played chess quite a bit, and other games, you know. Yeah.
Tellez: How long was your mother with you?
Pantzer: Well she lasted… Well, she was here before. Did you know?
Tellez: Yes, sir. And then they moved to Berlin a year before you were born.
Pantzer: Yeah, and then she came back the second time. I don’t think she lasted more than two years. She was sick, which we didn’t know.
Tellez: What was wrong?
Pantzer: She had cancer. But I don’t think she lasted more than two years.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
19
Tellez: Okay. So she never got to meet Katie, did she?
[long silence, as Mr. Pantzer looks away in contemplation]
Tellez: Okay. So basically that’s what you did all during the depression then. You worked half a week, and sold the knives and it got you through the whole thing. That’s good. Do you remember any of the experiences your neighbors had—any stories that kind of touched you and you still remember them?
Pantzer: The neighbors?
Tellez: Yes, or friends.
Pantzer: Well, we had, during the depression again, we had one neighbor, he had a business taking off awnings, storm windows, and screens in the apartments. You know, those big apartments? In the winter they hang storm widows, and in the summer they hang screens. And he had that business. And he needed help. And he asked us if we would help him when we get paid. And we did that for awhile. But it was only seasonal, in the late spring, or in the fall. In the spring you take the storm windows off and you store them in the basement and you put the screens up. And in the fall you take the screens off and you put the storm windows up. And I think we got paid fifty cents an apartment. He was a good neighbor. But otherwise, we [said] “hello, goodbye, how are you,” you know.
Tellez: So, basically, I think you stuck mostly with your family then, as far as close relationships.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay. Now, how did the arts compare in New York to the way they were in Berlin?
Pantzer: The what, now?
Tellez: The arts—music and theatre.
Pantzer: Oh, well, we made it our business to attend to theatre, or music. We took part in all that whenever we had a chance.
Tellez: Was it a lot different in New York than it had been in Berlin?
Pantzer: No, no, no. [We attended] the Metropolitan Opera House in New York, which is not being used anymore, but it was very elaborate, you know. And I remember seeing one opera, “Hansel and Gretel.” Did you ever hear of that?
Tellez: Yes, yes. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
20
Pantzer: Yeah. It was the first opera I ever saw when I was a little boy. And they showed it there. Well, we had to go. And it was very, very well done. We liked it very much. The music and the acoustics [were] very fine. And we use to— Of course we had to watch our money too, you know. We just couldn’t go all the time. But, as I said, there were a lot of free concerts. And we’d take part in them. Yeah.
Tellez: I know that classical is your favorite music. Did you listen to any other types of music in New York, like jazz [and] big band?
Pantzer: Well this modern—folk music we enjoyed. At the time we didn’t have this rock and roll or anything—this crazy jazz. We didn’t have that in the thirties. It came a little later. You know, Elvis and— Our children started to enjoy that sort of thing. But we didn’t go for that. But we had beautiful equipment at home. We had phonographs and, at the time, beautiful recordings, you know. You had what they called the 78, or the 33 and a half—all classical music on recordings. And we enjoyed listening to it. And that’s all a thing of the past. As a matter of fact, when I sold the house here on Oliver Hill, which was only six years ago, I had a machine form RCA. It was a radio, stereo—high [fidelity] recordings. I had a whole cabinet full of recordings—beautiful recordings—international, from all over the world. I had Hawaiian.
Tellez: Oh, I like Hawaiian.
Pantzer: I like Hawaiian music. Yeah. I think it’s very sentimental. And we had [a] beautiful cabinet. It sold for two dollars.
Tellez: Oh!
Pantzer: And why? Because nowadays everything is on a little tape.
Tellez: Yes. Well, you know Mr. Pantzer, they even moved beyond that now. Now they have them on those little, what they call, “CDs.” It looks like a little miniature record with silver. It’s hard to even get tapes anymore.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah. People don’t bother with it anymore. It’s all on tape. The same with the Encyclopedia Britannica. I had the whole set in a beautiful cabinet. And every year we got an extra issue. Beautiful books! You heard of the encyclopedia?
Tellez: Oh, yes, sir.
Pantzer: All of them were like new. And when we moved I gave them to my daughter. I said, "This will come in handy for your children in high school." Well, they had a garage sale. They sold it all. I don’t know what they got for it, maybe ten dollars, for all I know. She said, “Pop, it’s all on the computer. It’s all obsolete. We don’t bother with Britannica anymore; it’s all on the computer”—which is true.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
21
Tellez: Yeah, but there’s something beautiful about books, isn’t there?
Pantzer: Oh, yes! I enjoy picking up any book out of the shelf and just [reading]. Whatever subject, I wouldn’t know. Just, any page. And it’s so informative, you know. If you read about Edison, Tom Edison, or anybody. But, she said, “It’s all on the computer.”
Tellez: Yeah, you can pretty much find just about anything you need on the computer, but it’s not the same as having a book.
Pantzer: Yes, that’s right. That’s right.
Tellez: Okay, I forgot to ask, when we were talking about your restaurant. Do you remember some of your favorite customers?
Pantzer: Yes!
Tellez: Tell me about them.
Pantzer: Well, I had man—he was a very fine man, a steady customer—he would always come with some friends. And I would ask him, “Mr. McQuin, is everything all right?” He would say, “Oh, yes, everything is fine.” So one day I made a mistake. Paul [Mr. McQuin] must have had a few drinks in him. And I went out to the table. I said, “Mr. McQuin, everything all right?” He says, “It’s the worst meal I’ve ever had in all my life!” He double crossed me! Then we had one customer, he was a comedian. You get used to your customers, they get used to you. This fellow, he was just out of the Navy. He had something gone. He would say, “Mr. Pantzer, what’s the special today?” I said, “Mr. Trinidad, today we have beef tongue and spinach.” He said, “I never eat what was in somebody else’s mouth before.” I said, “All right, what would you like to have?” He says, “Let me have two eggs, please.” So things like that, that’s what you get.
Tellez: Okay. So you had a lot of regulars, I take it.
Pantzer: Oh, yes. They were all regulars. Of course, some of them, no matter what you do you couldn’t satisfy them. You had that. Yeah, I told one fellow, “I’ll give you five dollars if you eat some other place.” He said, “Yeah, let me have the five dollars.” But he came back the next day. [chuckle] But he gave me back the five dollars. When they came back from the service, they would get the first meal on the house. You see, that was a house rule. And this fellow, Tony—the little guy—the second meal he had already. So the third day I said, “Hey, didn’t you have your free meal yet?” He says, “Oh, I never finished it.” [chuckle]
Tellez: That’s funny!
[laughter]
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
22
Tellez: Okay, now I guess we’re going to move into World War II, in that era. Did you ever serve in the military?
Pantzer: Well, I was inducted, and when the war started, our place, the Navy took over because it was [in] communication and censorship. You know what censorship is?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Well, the whole thing was censored. And my place was restricted. And they told me, “You want to stay here, or [do] you want to move?” I said, “Well, no, with Uncle Sam in the war it wouldn’t last too long.” But, I got what they call “occupational deferment” because the Navy… Actually, they became the bosses. It was all restricted due to the fact that we had the communication it was, it made it tight—censorship. And that’s why they kept me there. I came in one morning and there was a fellow there, no ID, no uniform, because during the war, that was uniform days, you know. And this man, he had nothing [no uniform or identification]. I said, “Sir, this place is restricted. You’re off limits.” He said, “Oh, okay.” He finished his coffee and walked out. And a fellow said to me, “You know who that was?” I says, “I don’t know who that was.” He said, “That was Admiral Halsey!” [Admiral William Frederick "Bull" Halsey, Jr.]
Tellez: Oh!
[laughter]
Pantzer: Yeah, [and] I told him to get lost. So I said, “Siberia, here I come!”
[laughter]
Tellez: Did he ever say anything about you having said that?
Pantzer: Well, if it hadn’t been that the Navy took over the place, so to speak, I would have gone into the Army. I was inducted, though, and sworn in. But the company said, “No, you stay where you are.”
Tellez: So, basically, then, you ended up serving the Navy people who were working there in the building.
Pantzer: Oh, yeah.
Tellez: Okay. So you were drafted then.
Pantzer: In a way, I regret that I never actually served, but on the other hand, there was a difference of 21 dollars a day, once a month, in what your income was when you had a restaurant, you know—especially when you had two children and a wife to take care of.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
23
Tellez: Yes. But what you did was important too. It really was. Okay. Now, during the war there was some anti-German sentiment.
Tellez: Some what?
Tellez: Anti-German sentiment.
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: You know, sometimes people didn’t have good feelings toward [German Americans].
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: Did you ever have any bad experiences?
Pantzer: No, no, because I was never a German citizen, you know.
Tellez: Yeah, but you had a German surname.
Pantzer: Yes, but in the very beginning, when the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation] walked in, you know, and we all had to— They put up a desk in the middle of the floor, and we all had to bring our citizenship papers. And when I walked up with my papers, they all hollered, “Here he goes! Here he goes!” [implying Mr. Pantzer would be deported] And the two FBI officers said, “Don’t pay any attention to them. He says, you’re—” So, but, they knew more about me than I thought they did, the FBI.
Tellez: What were they saying again, when you walked up?
Pantzer: “Here he goes!” Yeah, you know, but the FBI walked in once, into the place [the restaurant], and they don’t have a badge, you know. They have like a billfold, their ID. And he said, “you have three men working here that are not citizens. And you have to let them go.” I said, “When?” He said, “today.” I said, “I don’t know who they are.” He says, “We do.” And I had once dishwasher, he came from Switzerland. And he was a real good man! I would make him—every night when he was done—a sandwich and a half a dollar I gave him, every night, because he had a furnished room some place and I knew he would go to a bar and have some beers with the half a dollar, and have the sandwich and go to bed. But he was always on the job. Sometimes he smelled like a cocktail lounge [laughter] but he was good. And I said, “Ernie, I have to let you go.” You know, the man actually cried. He said, “I never had a good boss like you.” He said, “Why do you have to let me go?” I said, “I just have to let you go.” And he actually cried. And then I had one fellow who was a Polish fellow. He worked the steam table. And he was good. And I went over to him. I says, “Polsky, Polsky!” I says, “You gotta go. I can’t keep you anymore.” He says, “Okay. Goodbye.”
[laughter] MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
24
Pantzer: That’s it. “Okay. Goodbye.”
Tellez: What did you call him?
Pantzer: “Polsky, Polsky.”
Tellez: P_O_L_S_K_Y?
Pantzer: Yeah. You know what a steam-table man is?
Tellez: No, sir.
Pantzer: The man who just operates the steam table. When you get orders like roast beef, mashed potatoes, bah, bah, bah, he fills up the orders. Yeah. At the steam table. And he was good. He was a good Polish boy. I called him “Polsky, Polsky.” I told him, “You gotta go.” He says, “Okay. Goodbye.” Then I had one fellow—and the FBI [agent] said, “Call me when he comes in at three o’clock.” He never showed up. His other guys in the place must have tipped [him off]. He was, he told me he was Puerto Rican, but he was a Mexican. And he was a wetback. And I had to let him go. But I never had a chance because he never came in! [chuckle]
Tellez: Oh, yeah, because somebody tipped him off.
Pantzer: Yeah, the other guys tipped him off. But that’s what you had to put up with when you were under those war conditions. They [government officials] were the bosses. The government were the bosses. And we had guards down by the elevator; you had to identify yourself; all your orders had to be screened. It wasn’t easy. We had one fellow, he was a customer, he said, “We’re SP”—you know, shore police. They were the guards for the elevator. So you couldn’t come up unless you went through the SP. And you had to be screened. And the one fellow, he always said to the SP, he says, “You know what I showed you all these years? My country club pass!”
Tellez: My what? Oh, country club pass!
Pantzer: Yeah. He [the SP] never knew the difference!
Tellez: Okay. So when [the security police] would ask him for an ID he would flip [his country club pass] open, and they weren’t really paying attention.
Pantzer: Yeah. And the SP was there with just a little desk by the elevator, you know—they had three elevators—and you would just show him the pass, and he knows you. But he’s suppose to examine the pass.
Tellez: And he didn’t.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
25
Pantzer: Yeah, because we didn’t want any sabotage. That was the whole thing. And that’s why I had to be very careful [about] who I let in the place. And it hurt business quite a bit. But I had the Navy there [and it] made up for it.
Tellez: That’s good. What were the people you knew saying about World War II? Your friends, your family, and even you—what were you all’s opinions of the war?
Pantzer: Opinion?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: We were hoping that they get this Hitler thing out before [rather] than after. That was the opinion.
Tellez: I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear you. They got him what?
Pantzer: Even before the war. I sent a letter over there [to Germany urging them to] put a knife in Hitler’s back. There [were] dark clouds on the horizon. Anybody could tell.
Tellez: I remember you [said you] got that feeling from him right from the beginning.
Pantzer: Yes, yes. Yeah. Before the United States ended the war, a fellow came over to me, he says, “I hear a German ship sank an English ship.” I said, “It did?” I said, “Anybody killed?” He says, “Sure.” I said, “That’s terrible.” It didn’t make any difference—an English ship, Japanese… Some poor slob lost his life. Right?
Tellez: Yes.
Pantzer: Yeah. Any war is a terrible thing.
Tellez: You grew up feeling that way with your mother. She was so peaceable and so against that sort of thing.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: If you were going to explain to say a young person, what is so bad about war, what would you say? What would be your advice about war?
Pantzer: Say that again, hon.
Tellez: If you were going to speak to a very young person about war, what would you say to them about war? What’s so bad about it?
Pantzer: Well, it’s murder! That’s all wars are. It’s murder.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 3 -
26
Tellez: Yes. I agree. And what do you think—the people who make wars happen—why do you think they do it?
Pantzer: Why did they?
Tellez: Yeah. What do you think their real motives—
Pantzer: That’s the sixty-four dollar question.
[laughter]
Pantzer: They all have different ideas. And [they’re] looking for different advantages—some for the good, some for the bad. Like our president [George W. Bush] he sent people over to Iran and to Iraq. Well, people are against it, and [others] are for it. The for it’s [say] he does away with the bad example we had here in September [with the] twin towers in New York. You remember that?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: The towers— Well, he put a stop to it. And there’s [other] people who say, “We never should [have] sent anybody over there. We should mind our own business.” So, it’s different people [with] different opinions.
Tellez: Well, you know what, Mr. Pantzer. I think we should stop here. That pretty much covers the questions I had up to World War II. And I think next time should probably be our last [interview]. So we’ll stop here, and I appreciate your time. I’m going to stop the tape now.
END SIDE TWO, TAPE THREE