University of Texas at San Antonio Archives and Special Collections
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Gustav Pantzer, Interview I, January 30, 2007
BEGIN SIDE ONE, TAPE TWO
Tellez: Today’s date is January 30, 2007. My name is Lisa Tellez, and today I’m interviewing Gustav A. Pantzer. Also present today are Mr. Pantzer’s niece, Pam James, and her son, Brett James. The interview is taking place in San Antonio, Texas in the home of Mr. Pantzer. Mr. Pantzer, do I have your permission to record this interview today?
Pantzer: You have my permission to do anything you want.
Tellez: All right, thank you. I appreciate that. Okay, in our last interview [after the recording ended] we talked about you listening to Hitler speak. Pam and I were wondering, do you remember the suburb that [speech] took place in—the neighborhood, I mean.
Pantzer: The what?
Tellez: What part of Berlin were you in when he spoke?
Pantzer: Oh, that was in the center of Berlin, I think. In Berlin. Yeah.
Tellez: And do you remember the things he said? I don’t think we covered that in the last interview.
Pantzer: Well, the main thing that he stressed was, “Why should you youngsters pay for the debts of your fathers?” And that was his punch line all along. And then he emphasized that he would lower the voting age from 21 to 18. So he got these youngsters to vote for him. You see he was a real racketeer, that guy.
Tellez: Did you believe him? When you listened to him speak did you have any faith in the things that he would say, or did you think—
Pantzer: Oh, I thought he was nuts!
Tellez: Okay. Also, now, in our last interview you mentioned playing after school. We were wondering— What kinds of things did you play?
Pantzer: What kinds of things, what, hon?
Tellez: What did you play? How did you play after school? Did you play any particular games? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 2 -
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Pantzer: Oh, yes, we had sports—soccer and stick ball, but especially soccer—and gym work and gyms, and a lot of sports.
Tellez: Okay. So y’all were very active.
Pantzer: All sports— That’s all we had.
Tellez: And would it be like the whole neighborhood—all the kids would come out and play together, or—
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes.
Tellez: Okay. That sounds exciting.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay, and how about toys? What kind of toys did y’all have when you were a kid?
Pantzer: What kind of clothes?
Tellez: Toys— playthings, like balls or little army soldiers—
Pantzer: Oh, we didn’t have much toys.
Tellez: Did y’all make any?
Pantzer: Well, we had electric trains, and a steam engine, I remember we had. That’s what we had. And we made ourselves scooters. You know what a scooter is?
Tellez: It’s like a little bike that you stand on?
Pantzer: You take a board and tape the roller-skates underneath and a stick in front. That was our steering. That was our scooter.
Tellez: Oh, okay! So you made it from your skates.
Pantzer: We built it ourselves, yeah. But that’s about it.
Tellez: Okay. That sounds fun. And how about your playmates? Tell me about them. Did you have any favorites?
Pantzer: Well, they were all the same bunch. As a matter of fact, one fella [later] came to see me unexpectedly in New York. He was on a ship which would shoot up planes from the ship like a catapult [an aircraft carrier?]. That was while Hitler was in power. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 2 -
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And he came to see me. And he said, “One fellow took a plane from Brunswick, New York. He took off and never came back [to Germany]. [Laughter] He went to Chicago and he stayed there.
Tellez: So he defected then, basically.
Pantzer: yeah, yeah.
Pam James: But not your friend?
Pantzer: No, I don’t know what happened to him. I never heard form him again. All I remember— He said he was sworn not to tell, but he said, “I’ll tell you.” All the freighters they had—the merchant ships—the all had guns on them already. They all had guns. And the ship [he was on] had guns on [it] too. They were hidden. They were all hidden.
Tellez: And was this before the war actually started?
Pantzer: before the war, yeah
Tellez: Oh, okay. So, in other words, they had it planned already.
Pantzer: Yeah, oh sure, sure. So he got on it—I don’t know why or how. He stayed with us, oh about a week, and I never heard form him again.
Tellez: Do you remember his name?
Pantzer: We called him Schulle—S_C_H_U_L_L_E. And way after the war, one of my brothers went over there for some business reason, and he tried to look up all of our old companions. They were all gone. There was none left. They were all gone—all wiped out. Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: That’s sad.
Pantzer: All of them!
Tellez: And Schulle, what was his first name, do you remember? I assume Schulle was his surname.
Pantzer: That’s what we called him. I don’t remember his first name.
Tellez: Okay. And was he in the military?
Pantzer: What?
Tellez: Was he in the German military? Or he just came here— MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 2 -
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Pantzer: He was working on the ship. He was assigned to that ship.
Tellez: As a civilian, or as military personnel?
Pantzer: Well, he looked to me like a civilian.
Tellez: So I guess he was a civilian and he spotted these things on the ship.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay. Now, another thing that we didn’t cover [in the last interview]—you spoke quite a bit about your [paternal] grandfather. When you left Germany, was he still living?
Pantzer: When I left?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: no, no
Tellez: Okay, so he had passed away.
Pantzer: No, he died in—I think, the year— He probably died in 1919—1919 or 1920. He died after World War I.
Tellez: Do you by any chance remember when he was born?
Pantzer: Oh, I don’t know. I know he was a fine old gentleman, but I don’t know when.
Tellez: Okay, and I forgot to ask you his name, Mr. Pantzer.
Pantzer: His first name was Carl—C_A_R_L.
Tellez: Okay. And then, his last name?
Pantzer: Pantzer.
Tellez: We didn’t talk about your grandmother, Carl Pantzer’s wife. Did you know her?
Pantzer: His wife?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Oh, I remember her well. She outlived him.
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Tellez: And what was her name, Mr. Pantzer? Do you remember?
Pantzer: No.
Tellez: Tell me a little bit about her. What was she like?
Pantzer: They lived in Berlin. He was retired. He was a very well-to-do man.
Tellez: Did she have some kind of hobbies, or—
Pantzer: Well all I remember, she was a very stately woman—a beautiful hairdo, and always dressed very well. They use to come in a horse and buggy to see us. And they had a driver. Yeah. But then, after inflation, she had to move in with her daughter because they lost everything. Yeah, inflation wiped them out.
Tellez: That’s sad. Okay, now, we were a little confused about the rationing of the food, because we knew that your grandfather was helping you, so we didn’t know where that seeming conflict came from. Could you explain who was rationing the food and why? Was it the government rationing the food?
Pantzer: I don’t follow you.
Tellez: Okay. Remember you were telling me the story about how you would save your bread, and y’all had very little because they were rationing the food?
Pantzer: Oh! How we saved our bread. Well, everything was rationed, right? So I remember we were allowed for breakfast a slice f bread. So what we did, we took a half a slice and put it away. [We] only ate half a slice. And the next day we took that half a slice and we ate the half a slice from the day before. And that’s [how] we went [on] the long building up so that at the end of the week. We had two slices of bread [and] we could go on a trip. We used to do a lot of hiking, you see. And then we had two slices of bread to take along on our hike.
Tellez: Where would you hike to?
Pantzer: Well the suburbs were all woodland and mountains. We had one big mountain there outside of Berlin. And there were lakes, and woodlands.
Tellez: And when you went hiking, did you fish?
Pantzer: The school was actually compulsory that they would hike once a month—the classes. And then there were certain outdoor activities while they were on the hike. And it was very popular.
Tellez: Oh, okay. And was that for physical education, to help you exercise?
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Pantzer: Yes, yes.
Pam James: The volksmarch? [People’s march]
Pantzer: Yes, yes, that’s right—except it was the children. Well, we kept it up here form out at Fort Sam [Houston Army Base in San Antonio, Texas]. Out at Fort Sam there was a volksmarch every week.
Pam James: People march.
Tellez: Oh, okay.
Pantzer: We kept it up, the wife and I, and there was a whole bunch of us. Yeah, out at Fort Sam. I don’t know if they still do or not, but we were volksmarchers.
Pam James: It’s real popular in Germany.
Pantzer: We’d go almost every—at least once a month, or twice a month—to different destinations, you know.
Tellez: And would everybody go together?
Pantzer: Yes, yes. Somebody would go ahead and mark certain points that had refreshments, like orange juice or coffee. And also points of orientation, that when you walk, you knew where you were going. And you’d get to point number one, and they’d tell you how to get to point number two. So nobody go lost.
Tellez: Oh, okay. And what was the purpose of that?
Pantzer: For your health.
Tellez: Okay. Was that something that went on for a long time in Berlin? Was that throughout all of Germany?
Pantzer: The volksmarches?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: I don’t know if they still do, but it used to be very popular. It was very popular in this country [the United States].
Tellez: Okay. I’ll find out for you if they still do it here [at Fort Sam Houston Army Base].
Pantzer: Oh, yeah, out at Fort Sam. We used to meet in Fort Sam, and we would march out of Fort Sam. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 2 -
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Pam James: Uncle Gus, who did the rationing?
Pantzer: Who did what?
Pam James: Who rationed the food?
Pantzer: The government. Yes.
Tellez: And at the time the food was being rationed, had your grandparents already lost all of their money?
Pantzer: Well, they lost their money during the inflation. See, what the government did when they lost the war—this is World War 1—and they had to pay x amount in reparations. Got it? So they devalued all the money which was held by the people, and it started inflation. In other words, what they wanted to do is wipe you out so they were able to pay their debts. That’s about the meat of the thing.
Tellez: All right. So, you don’t remember if you grandmother was involved in any community activities or charities?
Pantzer: No, no. All I know is they had to give up their house and their maids and everything. She moved in with her daughter. They [the daughter and her husband] were still well-to-do because her husband knew how to safeguard his money. He picked up a lot of real estate right away. Yeah, it was anything tangible. Anything tangible was safe, like iron, copper, brass—anything tangible. But the rest was worth nothing. And he was wise enough to pick up a lot of real estate, and he bought a brewery and he did all right.
Tellez: Oh, that’s good. Now, going back to your school—you were talking about that just a minute ago—what did your school look like?
Pantzer: It was quite a big complex—beautiful brick building. I would say it was quite impressive.
Tellez: Was it historical at that time?
Pantzer: Oh, as a matter of fact it had a huge courtyard, and all the facilities you could think of—and very well kept and everything in order.
Tellez: Okay. Now how about the teachers? Were there male and female teachers, or just male teachers?
Pantzer: All male teachers. Yeah, this was an all male school. And my sister, she went [to] what they called the [inaudible, but sounds like “leesayall”], or girl’s school. And there were lady teachers, as well as man teachers. But in our [boys’] school, there were only men teachers. They were all professionals. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 2 -
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Tellez: Do you remember any of your favorite teachers?
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: Can you tell me why they were your favorites?
Pantzer: I remember him very well—in physics, chemistry, and geometry. His name was Dr. Friseke.
Tellez: What did you like about him?
Pantzer: Because after school hours he would show us how to build gliding planes. He was a pilot of gliding planes, and [he would] just jump off a mountain and glide along in the air. And he showed us how to build these things, and spent a lot of time with us after school hours. And he was what you call a very social guy, and easy to get to. That’s why my marks in his class were always A, A, A, because he was really nice to work with. And he made himself understandable.
Tellez: Did you build a glider?
Pantzer: No, no. I just had the model, you know. We built these models. We just let them off and they would glide along for a little while. But he was a pilot in a glider plane, this man.
Tellez: The other thing I want to ask you— What were your favorite subjects in school?
Pantzer: Well, they were all my favorite subjects, except one was not my favorite and that was Latin. And I had to take it for seven years. And I still remember little of it. But all the other subjects, they were all my favorites—English, French—they were all my favorites.
Tellez: So I take it you really enjoyed school.
Pantzer: Yeah, I liked them all. I didn’t like homework. I did not like homework.
Tellez: Okay. I’m sure you weren’t the first student who didn’t like homework!
[laughter]
Pantzer: But I didn’t care for Latin.
Tellez: Yeah, seven years—that’s a lot of Latin.
Pantzer: That’s a lot of Latin. That’s a dead language. But it’s the basic [foundation] language for all modern languages. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 2 -
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Tellez: And did that help you when you were learning other languages?
Pantzer: It helped me in French, and it helped me in English. Yeah. When I came over I could speak English. I spoke the Oxford English. The English English.
Tellez: So you spoke English better than the people who were living here already.
Pantzer: Well, many times I made a fool out of myself for speaking the Oxford English.
[laughter]
Tellez: But it was proper!
Pantzer: Well, I remember it was my first or second week with IT&T [International Telephone and Telegraph], and there was a subway accident. I was supposed to be there at seven o’clock and I was late. So we had a lady; she was a timekeeper. So I went to her, [and] I says, “Begging your pardon me lady, but there was a mess up in the underground, don’t you know, and I’m a bit tardy.” She says, “Yeah, yeah, we know all about it. Go ahead.”
[laughter]
Tellez: That sounded nice! Okay, what was the normal length of a school day? Was it the same as here, or was it different?
Pantzer: Oh, we had to go six days a week. And we started at seven-thirty, and we got out at one, and twice a week we got out at two-thirty. And then once a week we had to go back in the afternoon for physical exercise. But we had to go six days a week.
Tellez: How far from home was your school and how did you get there?
Pantzer: I had to walk—half an hour walk.
Pam: Ask about the shoes.
Tellez: Yeah. Tell me about your shoes.
Pantzer: Oh, well, many times we didn’t have leather shoes We had wooden sandals—a piece of wood with a canvas band over it, and a hinge in the middle so we could flex the toes.
Tellez: Oh, okay. I wondered how you could bend your foot.
Pantzer: Well, there was a hinge in there.
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Tellez: So you wore those to school?
Pantzer: Well, yes, if you didn’t have leather shoes, you wore those.
Tellez: And did you have a uniform?
Pantzer: No. We just had a cap, you know—a student’s cap, and different colors, and different bands every year. Our color was red, and we had different bands, and every year the band would change, and then when you get in the upper classes the cap was white. That’s one of those caps, you know. Yeah.
Tellez: Well I bet you felt good when you got a white one.
Pantzer: [laughter] We use to drink water out of em!
[laughter]
Tellez: You did, really?
Pantzer: Sure! No problem.
Tellez: So I take it they were waterproof then.
Pantzer: Yeah.
[laughter]
Tellez: Last time we discussed your family dinners, and I forgot to ask you… When you were a child in Berlin was it customary for the children to sit at the same table with the adults?
Pantzer: No. In our home we sat all at the same table, but when we went visiting, the children always sat at a separate table and the adults had a separate table. Yeah. In other words, the children were in an entirely different relationship at my days—between adults and children—than we have here.
Tellez: How was it different?
Pantzer: Well, over there they had what they call a “class distinction.” And here we are equal, we are free, we are happy, and over there was a lot of class distinction. In other words, if you were an official in the government, you wouldn’t bother much with a carpenter or a plumber. You see what I mean?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
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Pantzer: They would hardly look at each other. And that’s one thing that impressed me the first week when I came [to the United States]. On Wall Street, downtown New York, there was a gathering of a street cleaner and a policeman, and you could tell it [the third person] was a stockbroker. He had a little attaché case—dressed very well. And they were arguing about baseball like nobody’s business. It was on clique. You never had that on the other side [in Europe]—not in my days. And the policeman [in Germany], he was above everybody too. See that was the difference—the class distinction.
Tellez: So they had a social hierarchy.
Pantzer: Yeah, which my mother and our [family], we objected to that. Yeah. But you had to live with it. I don’t know how it is now. It’s probably all changed. And that was under the Keiser’s rule. It was a monarchy. And if you didn’t have a uniform, you were looked on like not a hundred percent.
Tellez: Like a lesser person?
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah. Class distinction.
Tellez: And did your mother see all people as being equal?
Pantzer: Well, we were sort of social people, you know. Yeah, because they [Mr. Pantzer’s parents] were Americanized, our family was.
Tellez: Okay. That’s right, because they lived in New York first.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay, now where did you family go to get your food? Did you have a garden or did you buy everything at the store? I remember you said you bartered.
Pantzer: Well, we had to buy everything at the store. We had a garden we grew all summer [with] vegetables and so on, you know. But the rest you had to buy, if you were able to get it.
Tellez: What was the store like there? Did they have a little store in each neighborhood?
Pantzer: Yeah, momma and papa stores. They didn’t have these big supermarkets in my day. Now they do, but not in my day. It was for papa and momma stores.
Tellez: Those are better. Okay, so I take it your mother did grow a garden and she shopped at the little neighborhood mom and pop store. And do you remember the store? Could you describe what it was like?
Pantzer: Yeah, I remember them well.
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Tellez: what was it like?
Pantzer: Well, there was a counter. There was mamma and papa behind the counter, and there were groceries all over, and they would help you. You had to bring your own basket. There were no bags. You had to carry a basket to put your groceries in. Then you had to take a piece of paper and pencil to start adding up, and you had to watch very carefully that the Os was not a nine, you know. And then it would add up, and you would pay, and that was it. Yeah.
Tellez: Did you ever get any treats, like candy, when you went?
Pantzer: Oh! I remember the story— Somebody gave me a penny. And I went to one store and I asked the storekeeper, “How much candy will I get for this penny?” And she said, “You get two pieces.” I thought, “I’ll go next door to Florweizler, the other store, and see how much I get there.” And she gave me three pieces for the penny. So I got the three pieces and I went back to the first store and showed em. I said, “Florweizler gave me three pieces for the penny. You only gave me two!”
[laughter]
Tellez: That’s a good story!
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: Did they get mad because you said that?
Pantzer: Oh, they laughed, you know.
Tellez: Okay. Also, you mentioned having a maid for a time. Did the maid live at the house, or did she just come and clean occasionally?
Pantzer: She lived there, yes. She had her own room. She had a small room, I remember. Off the kitchen there was a small room, and that was the maid’s room.
Tellez: And did she cook also?
Pantzer: Well, I don’t know. Maybe some, but I— She probably did some cooking, but I’m pretty sure my mother had the hand in that. Yeah. But she was for cleaning and everything else, you know. Yeah. We had one—she was very nice—I remember. My parents were gone some place, and she wanted to go to the movies. But she was supposed to watch over us. So she said, “What do you say, kids? I’ll treat you to go to the movies with me.” So we all went to the movies and she paid. Because the poor kid, she wanted to see that one picture. And I don’t even know what we saw—what it was all about—but we all went, cause she couldn’t leave us alone, you see. Yeah, yeah. I remember her!
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Pam James: Was she a babysitter, or a maid?
Tellez: Did she clean also, or did she just take care of y’all?
Pantzer: Oh, no, she cleaned. She cleaned, and I remember she took care of the wash and all. She was a hard-working girl, I’m sure. But that changed ever so often. Some stayed a year; some stayed two years.
Tellez: did you and your family have any superstitions?
Pantzer: Superstitions?
Tellez: Yes, Sir.
Pantzer: No. All I remember [is] that my mother hated the Keiser. She didn’t want anything to do with anything military. And she used to tell us, “He gets a [inaudible] and we get the tail.” And that was about the size of it. She had no use for any military. And, uh— Well, because she was Americanized, you know.
Tellez: And I remember you saying she was very peaceable.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: Okay. I remember you mentioning that your family attended a Lutheran church. Can you describe the church for me?
Pantzer: Well, it was a very impressive church. The way the churches are here, with a narthex, and a sanctuary, and the holy of the holy places—which is the alter and the lector—and the chancel was elevated. The pastor would have a little build-out on the first floor and he would look down on you when he preached, you see.
Tellez: Like a balcony—a little balcony.
Pantzer: Yes, yes. And there was no collection, because it was state-sponsored, and paid by the state. In the narthex they would have a little receptacle. If you wanted to drop something for the poor, you could do so, but there were never any collections because all members, their dues were taken up out of your salary. And the state paid for it.
Tellez: oh, okay. That’s good to know. That’s quite a bit different than here.
Pantzer: Yeah, and I think it’s still the same. That’s why the churches are empty.
Tellez: Well what kind of music did they play?
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Pantzer: Well, the northern part of Germany was Lutheran, and the southern part was Catholic. But, we never knew the difference. It never dawned on us to say, “Oh he’s a Catholic.”
Tellez: Okay. And do you remember the music they played in church? Did they play any musical instruments?
Pantzer: Oh, yes! They had a beautiful organ—oh, yes, a beautiful organ—pipe organ. Some of the pipes were in the front, and some of the pipes were in the ceiling in the back. So the angels when they came and hit the keys, you heard it in the back. Oh, yeah, it was very elaborate. Very elaborate. But during the war [World War I] they took the church bells out, and they claimed all brass—whatever they could get.
Tellez: Was that for making weapons, or—
Pantzer: Yeah. And they just went into our homes and took all the brass—what we had in our stove, I remember—and they replaced it with iron. And my mother always kept them nice and shiny, and they just come and took em and put iron grates there, and iron doors. They used it as ammunition.
Tellez: Oh, I bet your mother was mad.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: Especially since she didn’t like the military.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay, now when you were in Berlin—we’re talking abut music—what kind of music did you like to listen to when you were growing up?
Pantzer: Especially the organ [and] piano. Yet, I never played an instrument—but I understand music. You know how you understand music? Do you play an instrument?
Tellez: I used to play piano.
Pantzer: Piano.
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Well now, when you played like Hayden Symphony, whatever, do you see a picture when you play, or do you just listen to the notes?
Tellez: I see it in my head.
Pantzer: You can see a field of reeds driven by the wind? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 2 -
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Tellez: Yes! Yes!
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah, well then you understand music.
Tellez: Yes, yes, like sometimes— There’s a piece that I really like. It’s by Chopin. It’s a lullaby. I don’t think I can pronounce it. The piece is called, “Berceuse.”
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: But I always say, “It reminds me of the wind blowing a leaf, like the fingers are just dancing across the keys.”
Pantzer: Yeah. Beethoven—he composed several, but this particular one was part of the [piece], and he [goes] “dat, dat, dat, dat!” [Mr. Pantzer makes a series of staccato sounds with his tongue] That was his landlady picking on him. And he had that in his music. Bap, bap, bap, bap. And that was the idea, when you listen to it, that you see a picture, not just the notes. Then you understand music.
Pam James: Uncle Gus, Beethoven wrote one called “Rage About a Lost Penny.” And you can see the man walking down the street and just drop the penny. And he’s so angry because he can’t find that penny.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah. Beethoven was an angry man. He couldn’t see well. He’d go, “bom, bom, bom, bom!” He was mad! Ha! He brought it all out in music. Yeah, I’ll tell you when we went to school, and we had a music teacher, of course, and I remember his name, Dr. Rosenhaur. And he made us kids sing a song. And the title of the song was “All the Birds are Back Again,” which was a little song. And it was my turn to sing “All the Birds are Back Again.” He said, “You better keep quiet. Otherwise all the birds will fly away!”
[laughter]
Tellez: That’s funny.
Pantzer: Yeah, [I] never forgot it.
Tellez: Okay, so is there any type of music— Did you like classical music the best?
Pantzer: Classical music. Yeah.
Tellez: Okay. Who were your favorite composers?
Pantzer: Tchaikovsky. We always subscribed to the symphony here, you know—the San Antonio Symphony. When they met at Trinity University, we had season tickets. But when they moved downtown—and the parking downtown— [Mr. Pantzer shrugs] MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 2 -
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We didn’t go anymore. And they’re still downtown, in the Majestic Theatre. It was very, very nice at Trinity University—the parking and everything. And in the beginning when we waited for an hour before closing up the cashier—because then if people didn’t come to claim their tickets, they would sell them to us for half price. And you had to take whichever seat they gave you—before we signed up for the season, you know. And it worked. Sometimes we had beautiful seats, and sometimes we didn’t. But it was half price.
Tellez: And you could still hear it.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: Do you remember that you told me about that Bolshevik woman named Rosa Liebknecht?
Pantzer: Oh, her name was Rosa Liebknecht.
Tellez: How do you spell that, please?
Pantzer: Her first name was R_O_S_A. Her second name is L_I_E_B_K_N_E_C_H_T. Yeah, they found her body in the river. Yeah, there was a lot of monkey business going on. Those were the revolutionists. Those were bad days. But then they settled and they elected the first president of the Republic. His name was Fritz Ebert. He was a saddle maker. And he became the first President of the German Republic, after the Keiser [Wilhelm, II] took off. You know, he took off in the middle of the night. [laughter]
Tellez: Did your mother like Ebert?
Pantzer: No. She could [not] have cared less. She didn’t want any part of that—[nor did] I. not interested
Tellez: Because I know she didn’t like the Keiser, so I was thinking maybe she was excited that there was someone replacing him.
Pantzer: Well, the Keiser was nothing but a dictator. That’s all he was. He had no brains; he was stupid. He threw the inkpot at [Otto Von] Bismarck [the German chancellor]. You ever heard of Bismarck?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: He was the first German chancellor they had. And he was a smarty. He knew what was going on. And he wanted to tell his Emperor and he threw an inkpot at him. So he hauled off and walked out. But the Keiser [Wilhelm, II] himself was stupid. He had no brain, and he was just a dictator.
MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 2 -
17
END SIDE ONE, TAPE TWO
_________ ... (1 Minute, 10 Seconds)
Unrecorded Conversation Continued:
Tellez: Mr. Pantzer, did you or your neighbors know Rosa Liepknecht [the revolutionist who drowned in the river]?
Pantzer: No, no. We heard about her when we went into the center of the city. They had those flyers, you know. They posted them on poles for people to read. That’s how we got our news. So when we come in form the suburbs, we read the flyers.
Tellez: So you lived on the outskirts of Berlin?
Pantzer: Yeah. And we still heard the guns when they had the revolution. They told us not to go into town because it was dangerous, so we stayed at home. But we could hear the fighting. It was quite a commotion.
Tellez: Do you remember anything else about it?
Pantzer: No, no. All I remember is the guns shooting all night—lots of guns.
Tellez: You look sleepy, Mr. Pantzer.
Pantzer: Yeah, I have to go downstairs in an hour.
Tellez: We’ll stop here for now, then. Thank you for your time.