Interview with Chief Master Sergeant Robert D. Gaylor (USAF Retired)
Date of Interview: 312 1/05
Time of Interview: 1 :00pm-2:30 p.m.
Location: Great Northwest Public Library
San Antonio, TX
Interviewer: Martin Quirk
Quirk: Chief Gaylor, Where and when were you born?
Gaylor: I was born on the gth of May 1930 in Bellevue, lowa.
Quirk: Can you tell me a little bit about your family?
Gavlor: We are a big family. There are eight of us kids still living. Five boys and three
girls and I am the oldest of the five boys. Our parents are deceased, but the eight (children) of us
are living. My dad came from a family of eight so, traditionally, the Gaylor clan has been
reproductively compatible. I will say the eight of us were born in an eleven-year period, which
is a bit unusual, so we truly grew up together because the age differences were not that distinct.
Ouirk: Is that where you were raised?
Gavlor: When I was nine we moved to Indiana. 1939. At that time there were seven of us
kids. My one brother was born in Indiana. So we moved to Indiana in the summer of 1939 and
I lived there until I joined the Air Force.
Quirk: Can you tell me what it was like growing up during the 1930s?
Gavlor: Sure. In 1930, in Iowa was where I grew up in the 1930s, was, of course, the time
of the Depression. What I remember about it, and of course the first four or five years we don't
tend to remember much, but in the late 30s I remember that we didn't own property, we rented it.
And we moved four or five times, it seemed like we moved every year or so. I remember we
lived in four or five different houses in Bellevue, Iowa. Our life basically focused on family,
church, school, neighborhood. We didn't really go anywhere because there was no place
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gavlor by Martin Quirk
to go. There was no Disneyworld or Six Flags (amusement parks) and there was no way to get
there. There were no interstates or airplane flights. So, I remember we would, it always seemed,
on Sundays be with relatives for Sunday dinner. And church, everything was church on Sunday
and at least one night a week, and school. My whole life was [within] radius of four or five
miles. You know, family, church, neighborhood. The first movie I ever saw in 1938, (I was
eight years old) my Mom and Dad took me to see Sizow White and the Seven DwurJs. Also,
when 1 was eight years old, my grandfather took me to Chicago to go see the Chicago Cubs
Major League Baseball (game). And I have been hooked ever since. I am still a Cubs fan. So,
growing up was relatively simple in that our life focused on those things.
Quirk: What do you remember about December 7, 1941 ?
Gay lor: Oh, I have great memories about that. It was a Sunday morning. We lived in
Rossville, Indiana and I was 11 years old. 1 always had change in my pocket because I mowed
yards, shoveled snow. I sold fishing wonns to fisherman. So, I was always like an entrepreneur.
After church that Sunday morning, I had a nickel in my pocket and I decided to go to Shep's
Rest~zurant. It was a small town of 600 people. [I wanted to] buy a frozen Milky Wuy candy bar.
He put them in the refrigerator and froze them. Man, those were good. And you got a big
Snicker [candy bar] for a nickel then, so I went up there and I remember going into the restaurant
and there were people huddled around the radio. I stood there for a minute and I said, "I want to
buy a", and they went, "SHHHH"! And I said, "1 want a", (and they went) "SHHHH"! And
they were huddlcd around the radio and it confused me. I didn't know what was going on. 1
never got my Suicker [candy bar]. I walked out and I got home and my Dad was huddled around
our radio. You have to appreciate in those days you pickcd up a distant station so there was
static, and then a few words. So, having seen what I saw at the restaurant, I wondered, "what is
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gavlor by Martin Quirk
going on?", and my Dad told us that Pearl Harbor had been bombed. Well, 1 didn't know what a
Pearl Harbor was, I had never heard of it, I was 11. But, because of the reaction of my dad, I
remember it must have been something very serious. Well, the next day, a lot of young boys,
even some seniors in high school, left to join the military. So I was able to catch on that
something [big] was happening. Within a couple of days I knew that we were at war. So, I have
very vivid memories of that..
Quirk: Can you tell me what you remember about the Indiana home front during World
War II?
Gaylor: Yeah, a couple of great memories. Number one, my morn, who had had eight
children, and was crippled with Polio when she was a young girl, went to work in a factory. For
the first time working out of the home. And we thought that was so funny that she packed her
lunch [along with ours]. And when we'd leave for school she just. "You know, Mom'c got a
job." [the Gaylor children would say] She worked in a vegetable factory. I think she put the
caps on catsup bottles or something. But in those days, the women came out of the home to
replace the men who went off to fight. So, that was somewhat of a common scene. My dad
worked for his uncle in the grocery store, but in 1943, as the war was picking up, he told his
uncle he quit and he went with Alcoa, Alunzi?zum Company of America, because the factory paid
more and he wanted to be patriotic and serve his country. So Mom went to work in a factory and
Dad went to work for Alcoa, and on Saturdays in that small town, we'd collect newspapers [and
tinfoil], and all of us kids would take them up to the center of town and a truck would take them
away. It was the first recycling, if you will. And I also remember you could buy a U.S. savings
stamp for a dime, and when you filled your book, you could convert it to a bond. And so at the
age of 12 and 13, when I'd mow a yard and get 40 cents, I'd invest 20 cents. I'd go to the post
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Forcc Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
office and buy two stamps. And I remember when I finally got my book full, I turned it in for a
25 dollar savings bond, the feeling was of patriotism and serving. Everybody wanted to do
something for thc country. The other thing I remember is the rationing. You couldn't get coffee,
sugar, butter, or tires, and my dad had an A-Stamp on his windshield and that entitled him to four
gallons of gas per week. And a B-Stamp gave you eight, and a C-Stamp gave you 12. But to get
a C-Stamp you had to prove you needed your car for your income. And my dad didn't, so he had
an A-Stamp, four gallons of gas a week. Everything was patriotic, "bring the boys home", "win
the war", "beat the bad guys". Giving up [sacrificing], rationing, vic~oryg ardens. We werc
encouraged to plant and grow our own food, and I remember my Dad on weekends, would work
for farmers. And they would pay him with things; a bushel of beans, or a half a pig.
Quirk: Like bartering.
Gaylor: Instead of money, he would come home a with a bushel of peaches.
Quirk: What do you remember about VE [Victory in Europe Day]?
Gaylor: In 1945, I was between my sophomore and junior years. And I went back to
Iowa. I rode a bus, a Greyhound [Bus Line Service] bus back to Iowa, 300 miles through
Chicago, which was pretty unusual for a 14-year-old kid. I went to work for my uncle on his
farm. He did custom hay baling and I tied the wires on the baler. And in August, I had to go
back to Indiana for my junior year of high school, and he paid me by check. I had a $67 check
[total pay] and my aunt wrapped it in cellophane and put it in my shoe, so nobody could steal it
from me. They took me to Clinton, Iowa. That was the closest bus station, to catch the bus
across Illinois to Indiana. I was in the bus station, and literally, all hell broke loose. Yelling, and
kissing, and hugging, and dancing. And once again I was wide-eyed. I wasn't sure what was
going on. I knew we had dropped the atomic bombs because that was in the papcrs. I remember
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
trying to figure out what's happening? And they said the war has ended. Now that was VJ
[Victory in Japan] Day.
Ouirk: VJ Day, right.
Gay lor: In August. VE Day happened to be my birthday, 8 May.
Quirk: Oh.
Gaylor: There wasn't much [celebration] because we still knew we had the Pacific. Yeah,
VE Day sort of went by, that was Harry Truman's birthday, and he was president. It was my
birthday. VE Day was sort of low key. There wasn't a lot of excitement because we knew that a
lot of the boys from Europe would be sent to the Pacific to fight and we knew that the big battle
was still going on in the Pacific. But VJ Day, oh God, was awesome. I remember riding the bus
across Illinois and everywhere people were talking about it. There was a lot of back slapping
and hugging because the boys were coming home.
Quirk: When did you join the Air Force?
Gaylor: I joined September the 8Ih, 1948. I graduated in April 1947. I was only 16 when I
graduated, because I started school when I was four. In Iowa, you could do that then. I was
always the youngest kid in my class, and that probably hurt me. That year of maturity somewhat
cost me because I wasn't ready for some of the tougher subjects. I hadn't learned how to apply
myself, but I graduated in 1947 and I immediately was hired by the power company of Indiana,
Public Service Company. I was a stockroom man. My job was to keep the bin full of the stocks
needed to build power lines. I was making $28 a week, which was good for a kid right out of
high school. College was out of the question, because, then, there was no tuition or scholarships.
And, I bought my first car. So I had a car, I had a good job, but I was living at home; the oldest
of the five boys. After 16 months, I thought, there has got to be more to life than Mulberry,
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
Indiana. We had moved to Mulberry. And so one night 1 was talking to my friend Eldon Skiles,
and we did the old, "I will if you will". You know, "are you serious"? "Yeah", well ... "You're
not kidding"? "No". And so the next day we went down to the recruiting office in Lafayette,
Indiana and we joined on a three-year enlistment. My mom required me to give a two-week
notice to my job, so I left on the stho f September 1948. The thought was, go away for three
years, grow up, see the world, mature, come back to Indiana, live happily ever after.
Quirk: So, in the Air Force, how did you pick that career field? What group level [job]
did you get?
Gavlor: + We rode a train to Lackland [Air Force Base in San Antonio, TX], it took
three days. We arrived at Lackland, and we were immediately picked up at the train station.
And our training began.
Quirk: What do you remember about that basic training?
Gavlor: Oh Gosh. You know, I should tell you here, in fairness to you, 1 am either blessed
or plagued, I'm not sure wh~chw, ith a tremendous memory bank. I can remember dates and
names like few people can. I have a whole head full of information [laughing] that is not of
much value to anyone. But I have very vivid memories. I remember our TI [training instructor]
coming in. We had already gotten our hair cut. - + The first thing, they made us take all of
our clothes off. They cut our hair, then we got in the shower, and then they issued us our clothes.
And they told us, "Get dressed and sit on your duffle bag". And, so here we all sat, 60 of us,
scared to death. I remember [laughing] my cap was too big and it came down over my ears.
And the TI came in and he said, "My name is Justin, and starting now, I am your mother, your
father." "I am your", you know. Ha ha. "From now on, you will get your instructions from
me." And so basic training began. In those days, basic training was 13 weeks. And, there were
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Interview with Chief Master Scr~eanot f the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor bv Martin Quirk
a lot of details. We pulled KP [kitchen duty] seven times. We white-washed trees. We cleared
brush, in addition to our training. But one or two days a week, wc had detail. They thought that
was how you learned discipline, by working together in some task. But what I remember first,
the Service was segregated. There were no Blacks anywhere to be seen. They were trained in a
separate part of the base and we never came together. And I remember, our latrine was thrce
buildings down from where we lived, so every morning you would see a parade of guys in their
skivees [undcrwear] going down the walk with their ditty bags [bags holding their toiletries] to
shave and shower. We lived in a tar paper barracks that had been built temporarily during World
War Two, and as best I can figure, geographically, my barracks was where the Lackland
commissary parking lot is now.
Quirk: Oh, okay.
Gaylor: Just by looking at other landscape. I do know we were on that side [the north] of
the base. Now the basic training is all on the other side. But, I do know for sure that we were on
the side of the base where the BX and the commissary are.
Quirk: You mentioned it was segregated at first. Do you remember when it was
officially, I won't say officially as in when I believe Truman ...
Gaylor: Oh, I remember tremendously.
Quirk: But do you remember exactly when it was? [desegregated]
Gavlor: Oh, I remember in detail. When I left Lackland, they sent me to Waco Airbasc,
Texas. And I left Lackland not knowing my career field. And they told us, "when you get to
your duty basc, thcy7ll decide how to use you based on their needs". And so I went home on
leave to Indiana so people could see my uniform. I was so proud. And people would ask me,
"what are you going to be doing?" And I said, I don't know. I remember I felt like a big
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Ciavlor by Martin Quirk
dummy, because, [others would ask] "what do you mean you don't know?" I said, they haven't
told me. So, I reported into Waco on, 22 December 1948, three days before Christmas. PFC
[Private First Class] Robert D. Gaylor. At that time, we had serial numbers. AF15275636. Now
they don't have that. Now they go by social security numbers. I didn't have a social security
number until many years later. I rode the train back to Waco and I reported in. And I went to
personnel. And a corporal, a two-striper, he said, "My job is to find you a career field." I said,
okay. He said, "I can offer you three choices. You can take your pick. We need cooks,
firefighters, and military policemen". And I must have said, "That's it"? Because he said, "I
don't have all day, you better pick one, or 1'11 pick one for you." I mean, he got hostile. So I
said, oh my Gosh, I'll take military police. And he wrote a name and a building number on a
piece of paper and told me to report to that building, that person. And he said, "Next". He was
through with me. And I will never forget walking across the field, dragging my duffle bag.
looking for a building. And that began my career. And my first tour of police duty was
Christmas morning, from one to five, 25 December, guarding the finance building. They gave
I T I ~a carbine [gun], stuck me on the finance building, and I walked around it for four hours. The
integration occurred in July of 1949. We didn't get a lot of notice about it; just one day we were
all called to a meeting. And we were told that Presidcnt Truman had signed the edict and that the
black Cops would be moving in, into our barracks. And there were eight of them. And, in a
couple days a truck backed up to the door and they unloaded. And we just stood there and
watched them comc in. And, we had to double-deck the bunks. We had open bay barracks about
the size of this room [A large room at the Great Northwest Library approximately 20' x 30'1.
We had to double-deck to accommodate them. I remcmbcr their names; Farmer, Shaeffer,
Broussard, and Townsend. And we hit it off. I don't remember any problems. But I do
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
remember that the sounds in the barracks changed. Most of us had radios and some had record
players and we'd play the country and western and big band [records]. And they played Count
Bassie [recording artist] and Duke Ellington [recording artist]. So, I remember the sounds
changed. And the odors changed in the barracks. The cosmetic odors. The aftershaves, I
remember that. I remember distinctly getting different sounds and different odors, and hearing
different stories. And I also remember we began winning some softball games. [laughing] We
didn't have a very good team. But a couple of those guys were pretty good hitters. And, we got
the black First Sergeant. There was one black First Sergeant and my squadron got him. And it
was one of the best things that ever happened because hc was a "cool head". Sergeant Jackson
was his name. And we ended up getting him and around the base people would say to me, "how
did you get the black guy"? "Where did you screw up?" You know, like it was a bad thing, and
it was one of the best things that ever happened. I don't remember having any problems. Now
part of that was because our Comniander, Captain Griffith, he said to us, "The first one who
causes a problem will be Court Martialed." So he let us know up front that if we generated any
racial incident, we'd pay the price. So I think wc all got that message.
Ouirk: You joined the Air Force in its infancy. the official Air Force [regarding its
official separation from the Arnly]. If any, what type of growing pains did you witness?
Gaylor: I didn't get Air Force blue uniform until December of '50. So over two years I
wore army OD. So, the delay was the issuance of uniforms, making them available. Because
they issued them to the basic trainees first, and those of us out in the field got them last. And I
remember there was no school for Cops, so thcy sent me to Military Police school at Camp
Gordon, Georgia. I rode a bus from Waco, Texas to Augusta, Georgia in 1949. Now, I grew up
in a small town in Indiana. so I had never secn, nor had I ever lived with blacks [African-
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gavlor bv Martin Quirk
Americans]. I'm not sure I had ever seen any. And so, it was an education. [To] See a black
[for African-American use only] water fountain. Black restroom [for African-American use
only]. Blacks only. Blacks [African-Americans) ride in back of the bus. That was all new to
me. And I remcmber being wide-eyed and confused. What is going on and why is this'? And I
remember the education that I was getting from that. Mostly I recall being somewhat confused
by it all. I didn't understand why it was happening, because I was strictly naive about all of that.
Quirk: You touched on the uniforms that you were talking about. I came across some
research that had the t e r ~ r ~"bsr own shoes" vs. black shoes", could you just touch on that a little
bit and tell me what that meant?
Gaylor: Oh sure. When we went Air Force, and began to establish our own identity in
chevron [blue uniforms with chevron insignias] uniform, as we began to expand our own realms
if you will, the "brown shoe" meant you are from the old days. You're not keeping up with the
new thinking. You're not making the necessary changes. You're still thinking and acting Army
days. Air Force shoes were black to go with the blue. And so "brown shoe" meant your living
in the past. You're outdated. [He speaks a few examples] "Oh come on, that's brown shoe."
"Oh come on, your out of touch." "You're still brown shoe." So, it was a criticism of saying get
up to date. Make the changes. Go with the flow of the new Air Force. But I was young enough,
nobody ever called me brown shoe because I went with the flow. When the new chevron came
out I applauded it. As we went blue, I liked that. As a matter of fact, I remember throwing some
uniforms away just to get rid of them, because I was so proud of the blue. And, the first blue
uniforms were 100 pcrccnt wool. And if you got caught in the rain you'd gain 20 pounds
[exaggeration]. They'd soak up water. I can imagine what a sheep must feel like when they get
wet.
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
Quirk: It isn't very comfortable.
Gaylor: Over the years they developed the synthetics [material], but at first, the overcoat
must have weighed eight pounds.
Quirk: What changes in Air Force policies do you remember coming about from the Air
Force experience during the Korean War?
Gaylor: Here's that story. In 1950, in the summer, I went home to Indiana on a 30-day
leave. It was the last 30-day leave I ever took because it was too long. There is a belief that you
can never go home. I got back to Indiana and after about five days 1 was ready to go back to
camp. I found civilians didn't think and act like I did. And I missed my buddies and my way of
life. So I vowed I would never take a 30-day leave again and I never did. Wouldn't you know
that while I was home on leave the war broke out, North Korea invaded South Korea. I got back
to Waco, half of my unit was gone. And I've often wondered, had I not been on leave, I might
have shipped out and my life would have changed totally. So, a series of coincidences, call it
fate if you will. "Where's Durham, and where's Kutch"? And "where's Lyons"? [the reply
was] "They shipped out". And another thing I remember, we started guarding things we hadn't
been guarding. We guarded the water tower and the fuel supply, because the belief was that we
were once again at war and saboteurs might try to bomb those things. And, so, my duties
changed. We had to get other people from other units to help us guard those things because we
didn't have enough cops. And, then I remember hearing that a lot of my friends from Indiana
had joined the Air Force. Lackland [Air Force Base] doubled in size. At that time in 1950, we
had about 280-thousand in the Air Force and we went over 500-thousand in two years. And at
Lackland, they got so crowded they pitched tents and even then they sent people to Sampson,
New York, Parks, California, Amarillo, Texas, Wichita Falls, Sheppard [Air Force Base]. They
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gavlor by Martin Ouirk
opened basic training to accommodate the influx. And I came to Lackland to visit a couple of my
buddies who had joined from Indiana. I drove down from Waco. And, Lackland was wall to
wall people. And they cut basic training to about five days because the bases were yelling for
people.
Quirk: Five days ...
Gaylor: Really, it was issue them clothes, give them a bible, teach them how to salute,
give them a shot and send them on their way.
Ouirk: Thirteen weeks to five days?
Gay lor: To five days. And then they eventually went back to six weeks, but, the bases
were clamoring for new troops. We needed troops for the buildup. So, Lackland was shoving
them out. Really, it was.clothing and a few shots. They gave you a New Testament [bible book]
and a haircut and sent you on your way.
0uirk:You mentioned that you had some friends in that unit and some friends from Indiana.
Did you lose any of those friends during the Korean War?
Gaylor: No.
Quirk: No.
Gaylor: No, you know, traditionally the Air Force, those who fly, are the ones who do our
n~issions. For the most part, and there's exceptions that now, in Iraq, but back in Korea and even
Vietnam, for the most part the enlisted were at the bases that launched the airplanes. I was a cop
in Korea, I was a cop in Vietnam, I was a cop during the Cold War, the Cuban Crisis. I was
hundreds of miles away from any potential danger. So, no, I didn't lose anyone. I lost some
officer people I knew, [but no enlisted men].
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Interview with Chief Master Seryeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Ouirk
Ouirk: I know that in 1957 you served as the training instructor at Lackland. Can you
tell me what your duties were for that?
Ga ylor: That's a great story. I have to just tell you. I went to Korea in 1956 as a cop, and
in 1957, I came back as a cop. When I was allowed to pick the bases I wanted to go to when I
came out of Korea, I picked: Lackland, Randolph, and Brooks. The clerk in the orderly room,
his name was Johnson, he said to me. "You want to go to Lackland?" I said sure. Hc said,
"Well, I can guarantee that." 1 said, how? He said, "just leave it with me." "Trust me." So, I
left Korea and went to Lackland. I got to Lackland thinking I am going to be a cop only to find
out 1 was going to be a TI [training instructor]. Johnson volurlreered me to be a TI. I didn't
know it until I got to Lackland. He volunteered me [laughing].
Quirk: Was that good or bad?
Gavlor: Well, initially it was bad. I was horrified. I didn't know what a TI was. I
remember saying to the guy, I'm going to be a what? I said, what is a TI? [the guy at Lackland
replied] "A basic training instructor." I said, "Well how did that happen"? He said, "Look at
your orders. See that capital T in parenthesis after your name?" said, 'yeah'. He said, "do you
know what that means?" I said, "no". He said, " you volunteered to be a TI." And that's when I
found out that Johnson had volunteered me. Well, here is the kind of guy I am. My attitude has
always been if something happens to me over which I have no control, my only thought is to
make the best of it.
Ouirk: Right.
Gablor: So once they told me I was going to be a TI, I said, "forward march." Yeah, and
they sent me to TI school for eight weeks and I was a TI four years and four months.
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Interview with Chief Master Sergcant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
Quirk: What did you do after yourjob as the Training Instructor? What did you do after
that, for the next four years?
Gaylor: At Lackland, or?
Quirk: Yeah, at Lackland.
Gay lor: That is sort of interesting. I was assigned to the 3709 Basic Military Training
Squadron. That was all male. Okay, aftcr I had been there for a while I noted that the young
ladies were trained in a separate squadron, removed physically from where our squadrons were.
They were up in the far comer of the base by themselves. After I had been in the male squadron
for two years, I was called in and my Commander said to me, "you've been nominated to be the
Senior Training NCO [Non-Commissioned Officer] in the WAF [Women in the Air Force] Basic
Training Squadron." And I said, "What"? And he said, "the Senior Training NCO, who is a
man, is retiring and you have been nominated to take his place. Are you interested?" Well, I
knew it was a job promotion, and so I ncver denied myself a chance to move up. So my wife and
1 went for interviews, she had to go with me. And I was interviewed by Major Agnes McAmis,
the Commander, and Norma Archer, the Senior Training Officer, and they selected me. So for
two years I was in the WAF [Women in the Air Force] Basic Training Squadron. This was 1960.
Well. there weren't but a few women in the Air Force and it was unheard of for a man to work
for a woman. So I was really a novelty. I was a freak, but that paid-off later when we increased
the number of women, that I was able to help grease the skids for that, because of my
knowledge. So I was two years in the male squadron and two years in the female.
Quirk: Okay, through my research, again, I saw that in 1965 you were assigned to the
Korat Royal Thai Air Force Base. Right around that time of Operation Rolling Thunder [United
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gavlor by Martin Quirk
States Air Force bombing campaign against targets in and around Vietnam] I believe, what were
your experiences there during that time?
Gaylor: [I9671 Sixty-seven was when I went to Korat. January, 1967. By then, I was
back in the cops, and I went to Korat as a cop. I was a Senior Master Sergeant. And when I got
there, it turned out that 1 was the top enlisted cop, so they rliade me the Provost Sergeant,
working directly for the Provost Marshal, who was a Major. And at that time, I had 140 cops
and about 60 or 80 Thai guards. And the mission of Korat was to fly F-105s fighter-bombers
[aircraft] to bomb the enemy targets in Vietnam. Our job was to guard the flight-line [airstrip],
fuel storage-bomb dump, and the airplanes. We were working 12-hour shifts to accommodate
that. In 1967 is when hostilities really increased. When I got there we were probably flying
about 25 to 30 flights a day. by mid-summer, we were flying 72. And the pace was really
picking up. We were losing airplanes just about, well, not every day, but we lost 17 aircraft in
October, 1967. So, our base was really fighting the air war.
Quirk: Those were 17 F-105s you lost?
Gaylor: Yeah, 105s. And at that time, I was getting more cops too. Things were building
up. Things were rapidly picking up. I think when I got there we had 140 cops, when I left, there
might have been 250. So 1967 was a year of really increased hostility and build-up. And in
1967, President Johnson came. I was there when he visited the base. And the reason he came
was to get a better feel of what was going on there knowing that the war was escalating. And I
left in January '68. So I was there one year. January '67 to January '68.
Quirk: In 1970, I believe I have the date right, you became Senior Enlisted Advisor for
the Second Air Force.
MS 315. Veterans History Project
lnterview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gavlor by Martin Quirk
Gaylor: Yeah. They called it Sergeant Major then. Senior Enlisted Advisor, that title had
not caught on as yet. It was called. I remember General Jones, who picked me, a three-star
General, he introduced me. "This is my new Sergeant Major", which is an Army term. But we
djdn't adapt Senior Enlisted Advisor until about thc mid '70s [1970s]. And you know what? My
job was not defined. I was the first in the job. I remember asking myself, "What am I supposed
to do?" You know, I got this fancy title. What do I do? I defined the job myself. I had become
a student of leadership. And I had developed a reputation of being somewhat of an, "expert" in
enljsted leadership. I read the books. I had been to seminars. I was fascinated by leadership.
And Jones hired me because of that. And so knowing that that was the reason he hired me, I sort
of concluded that must be what he wants me to do. So I began to travel throughout the
command. We had 17 bases. And basically, when I would contact a base, I'd tell them, "set-up
audiences." And they'd say, "for what'?" I'm going to give a talk. [they would ask] "What do
you talk about?" Just get the audience. I had enough authority in my position to do that. So it
was truly flying by the seat of my pants. I'd go to Blytheville Airbase, Arkansas, Carswell,
Texas. I'd go in and there maybe there'd be somewhere between 15 and 60 people. And I'd talk
about leadership. Well, apparently I must have done okay, because my reputation began to
build. And within six months I was getting invites. [Leaders at airbases would say] "Hey, you
made a good impression, could you come back?" And so I literally developed the job based on
my own initiative and expertise. And Jones was happy because in '7 1 he got his fourth star and
got selected to go to Europe as the Commander of the United States Air Force in Europe. And
he took me with him. I went over there and did the same thing there that I had done in [the
U.S.]. It was an era of initiative, branching out, and trying new things. It was exciting. We had
some serious problems. Our image in the military had suffered tremendously. It was not a good
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gavlor by Martin Quirk
time to wear a uniform out in public. People spit on you and called you names. And so there
was a lot of turbulence and unrest. The racial scene was turbulent. The drug scene was
increasing daily. We were bringing in more women and didn't know what to do with them. So,
it was a time when anything you did was for the good. And I look back now, it was exciting
times because there was no charter, there was no guidelines. We were defining the standard as
we went along. I look back now and think how exciting it was.
Quirk: You mentioned some drug use. Was that rampant at all in the Air Force?
Gaylor: Oh yeah. Here is my belief. When people feel put upon, or when people are not
comfortable with the way things are going, or when people have emotional distress, it seems
natural to look for an escape. And a simple escape is alcohol and drugs. You know, puff
yourself away or drown yourself in booze. And I remember even in Thailand in '67, drinking
was excessive. A case of beer was a nickel a can, a $1.20 a case. And the beer that we got was
Curling's Black Label, Pabst Blue Ribbon, and Olympia. And we'd buy 60 cases. We'd buy a
truckload at a time and store it in a room where we lived. And it was not unusual to drink four or
five cans while you were taking off your duty clothes, and then get down to serious drinking.
And when alcohol didn't satisfy the need, especially among the younger, they'd turn to primarily
marijuana and hash. And then some, who really got into it, went into the heavy stuff. Primarily
heroine. Cocaine wasn't that readily available. It was marijuana and hash primarily. But it was
not unusual. It was blatant. I remember one time they herded us all into a theater and the legal
officer and the chaplain were going to talk to us, and the chaplain got up and said words to the
affect, "you smoke pot, you'll go to Hell." And an Airman yelled out, "hey Chaplain, you ever
tried a little marijuana?" And the chaplain said, "why, no." And the Airman yelled, "Well you
should, it's enjoyable." And the applause. [laughing] And so, whatever we were doing wasn't
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Forcc Robert D. Gavlor by Martin Quirk
working. We had to come up with some new ways of addressing the issue. And that was a
combination of discipline and the education. But when you educate, it takes time. You can't
educate by a letter. [a letter stating] "You will stop doing ..." Really, and so we started race
relations training. We started just some basic education programs. We kicked a few
[misbehavers] out of the Air Force. And we punished a few. So it was a combination of
discipline and education. But I'll tell you, if you can imagine, in March, 1976, 24 black Airman
forcibly took over the airman dining hall at Minot, North Dakota. They captured the cooks and
barricaded themselves within. And they made phone calls to Congress and a Four Star General
in Nebraska, and the host of the Today Show [television program] Jim Hartz, and they had a list
of 44 demands that they insisted be met. And I was sent up there. I flew in there along with two
General Officers to find out why they were taking over the dining hall. And that is just one
example. It happened at other bases, something similar. I'm just trying to emphasize the unrest,
in image. The racial scene and the drug [use] in the '70s, were probably the most turbulent era
of military history.
Quirk: How did you solve that problem?
Gaylor: Education. The first thing you learn is you can't resolve it emotionally. It doesn't
do any good to stand toe-to-toe and yell at one another. You've got to sit down and let cooler
heads prevail. The first thing, you say, "Let me see your list of 44." [they reply] "Sure, here it
is." [Gaylor] "Hey, you know what, you're right, we have neglected this." Simple things like
cosmetics for blacks in the Base Exchange [stores on base]. The cd's [compact discs] and
cassettes we were selling did not provide for the black audience. Just some simple things we had
really not looked at. And so you start with saying, "okay". And then you7rc honest, and you say,
"okay, these things we can do, these things will take time". There were some airman pending
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gavlor bv Martin Quirk
discharge for bad conduct. One of the demands was to withdraw those discharges. We said,
"no, we are not going to do that." So, you don't just simply acquiesce, you meet them half way.
[would tell them] "No, we can't do that." "No, they are leaving." "As a matter of fact, we'll get
them out of here tomorrow because they are creating a festering." And so, you try to sit down
and you say, 'okay, here is what we have to do to stop the bleeding", and then look for more long
range [solutions]. So, we started the 20 hour race relation courses and we began to interact and
communicate with a combination of discipline. It took us about three or four years. I said I went
to Minot with two generals. One was a black One Star named Rufus Billups, and he was a cool
head. And so, you make sure that you had the appropriate upper-level brass to deal with the
issues. Am I making sense?
Ouirk: Yes.
Gaylor: You just don't go in there with a bunch of whites [people] and say, "what are your
problems?" So, we began to work the issues in a more sensible way.
Quirk: I understand that in 1972, you established the USAFE Command Management
and Leadership Center. First, can you tell me what the USAFE stands for, and secondly, can you
tell me what your duties were?
Gaylor: Yeah, USAFE, United States Air Forces in Europe. The entire European
Command. Okay, General Jones went over there, he got his fourth star, and he moved there in
the summer of '7 1 to be the new commander of USAFE, United States Air Forces in Europe.
And after he'd been there about three months he sent for me. At that time there was no enlisted
leadership training of any type, and there were over 100,000 enlisted people in USAFE.
Knowing of my background and what I had done with him in Barksdale, Louisiana, he sent for
me. When I got there he said, "Okay, we can't afford a Non-Commissioned Officer Academy.
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
We have neither the funds nor the location". But he said, "I want about a 60 hour leadership
program that NCOs, non-commissioned officers can attend." And he said, "How many
instructors would you need to do that?" And I said, "if you let me pick the oncs I want, I can do
it with three plus myself." I knew who I wanted, I had worked with some guys. So, I hired Ed
Ellis, coming out of Vietnam. I had him moved to Europe. Don Nelson who was already in
Europe, and I hired one black man, Luther Jackson, Torrejon, Spain, because I wanted to make
sure I had a black man on the faculty. And the four of us saturated the Command with leadership
training. I mean the four of us! Two of us would stay at home and students would come to us.
And two would stay on the road going out to the bases. We had bases in Turkey, Greece,
Netherlands, England, Germany, Spain. And man, we just hit the road. It was so exciting. We
put together. [End of side A]
Side B
Gaylor: Where did I stop?
Quirk: You were talking about where the USAFE training was.
Gaylor: As 1 said, we would just go all over Europe. And it got to where we were in
demand. I had more invitations than we could handle. But the 60- hour course that we put
together in residence, I could seat 36 students in the classroom. Most of these were Staff
Sergeants, Tech Sergeants, and a few Master Sergeants. We focused on leadership,
management, communicating skills, and race relations. And with those three guys that I hired
that were experts in those subjects, man, our reputation in Europe just skyrocketed. I had
potential students knocking the door down trying to get in.
Quirk: Really?
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
Gaylor: Begging me for a slot. You know, to go to this course. And we called it the
Command Management Center for lack of something better to call it. And I did that for two
years, and then General Jones asked me to move up to the highest enlisted position job in
Europe. Then in 1974, he was selected to be Chief of Staff of the entire Air Force. When I met
him he was a three-star and his career really zoomed.
Quirk: Wow. I see also in 1974 that you were in the Air Force Military Personnel
Center.
Gaylor: Well, what happened was, when General Jones got picked for Chief of Staff of the
entire Air Force in May of 1974, he called me in. By then, I had been with him for four years,
and he said to me, "Well, it seems to be working, where do we go from here"? And I said, "Sir".
I said, "I'll make it easy for you. Let me just say this, I'll do whatever you want me to do,
wherever you want me to do it". I said, "If you tell me to jump off the building, I'll jump". I
had such respect for the man, that I would do anything he wanted me to do. So he said, "Well,
let me get back to the Pentagon and let me see how I can best use you". So I stayed in Europe
for three months after he left, and in August of 1974, he got word to me. He said, "Well, I want
you to do for the entire Air Force what you did for Europe and what you did for Barksdale before
then". And he said, "1'11 let you decide where you want to be". He said, "You can be either out
[based in and traveling out] of Washington D.C., or Air University in Maxwell, Alabama, or
Randolph Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas". He said, "Give it some thought, take whichever
of those three you want". I said, "I won't have to give it any thought, I'll take Randolph Air
Force Base, San Antonio". So I came here in August of '74. And if you can imagine, I had a set
of travel orders good for a year at a time, that read that I could travel anywhere in the Air Force
world.
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chicf Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
Ouirk: Wow.
Gaylor: I became a traveling leadership instructor. I've often said, "1 was sort of like the
old Wild West guy in the medicine [shows], you know, in the covered wagon, riding into town,
sell the elixir?" Well, that is what I was. I would stay at a base three days, give six two-hour
talks, two talks a day. And I'd give them in base theaters, NCO clubs, wherever they had room.
And sometimes my audiences would be 20, and as many as 800. My reputation just spread.
Once I went to the Pacific area for 38-days, just leap-frogging from one base to the other. And
they would dedicate an airplane to me. And I'd go into a base, give some talks. Fly off the next
day. And I did that for three years.
Quirk: Three years?
Gaylor: And it was the most exciting thing because I was autonomous. I set my own
schedule. I made my own airline reservations. I was a one-man show. I just traveled around
giving leadership talks. And, I don't mind boasting that my reputation sort of spread. Where
initially, "Who is this guy, what is he doing?" To where I was, "Hey, Gaylor, I've got to have
you out here, I'm having a big conference, I want you here". And so, for three years it was just a
great job.
Quirk: When were the two top enlisted ranks created in the Air Force?
Gay lor: When 1 made Master Sergeant in 1956, that was the highest rank. That is six
stripes. As a matter of fact, I remember thinking that, "I am at the end of the line, I can never go
any higher". At that time we still had Warrant Officers. In 1958, they created the two new
grades. Senior Master Sergeant, which is seven stripes, and Chief Master Sergcarzt, which is
eight. And they did away with the Warrant Officer. Those that were already Warrant Officers
were allowed to stay in until their retirement, but they didn't make anymore. So the two new
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor bv Martin Ouirk
grades, called the Super Grades, were intended to somewhat rcplacc the Warrant Officer grades.
And so, they made the first Senior Master Sergeants in 1958, and then they promoted 625 of
those to Chief after one year, to get that rank started in 1959. But I was a Junior Master
Sergeant, so I didn't have a prayer. I made Senior in 1963 in Japan, and I made Chief in 1967 in
Korat, Thailand.
Quirk: When did you become Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force?
Gaylor: In July, 31, 1977. See by then, Jones was Chief of Staff, and I had been with him.
By then, I had been with General Jones for seven years, and so, when it was time to select the
fifth Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, most people in the Air Force, it was sort of a given,
that I would be it. Because people by then knew that 1 had been part of his team, and they knew
that my reputation was Air Force wide. I didn't know it, but a lot people would say to me,
"Come on Gaylor, you'll be the next one". I said, "Until they tell me", you know, "I'm not
going to conclude that". And sure enough, on about July 17, 1977, I was notified that I was it
[selected].
Ouirk: Now, you said that you had heard rumbling that it was going to be you, how did it
feel to attain that honor?
Gay lor: Absolute exhilaration. I was in Barksdale, Louisiana, giving a leadership talk,
and I went out to jog. My wife was with me. And I went out to jog, and 1 came back to the
room. It was 100 degrees [temperature outside]. And my wife said, "A Captain called from the
Pentagon, General Davis wants to talk to you". I knew General Davis was the director of
personnel, and so I thought, "oh-oh", "I am either going to be told yes, you are, or no, you're
not". So I said to my wife, "Well, I have to shower". I said, "You know, 100 degrees, I had just
run a couple of miles". While I was in the shower, I heard the phone ring. And I heard r~iyw ife
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor bv Martin Quirk
say, "Just a minute, he is in the shower, I'll get him". And she came and told me, [whispering]
"It's that Captain". And I came out with a towel wrapped around me, dripping wet, and I stood
in the middle of the floor of the room. And the Captain said, "Just a minute, General Davis
wants to talk to you". And I remember saying, "Chief Gaylor". And he said, "Where are you at
Chief?" I said, "I'm at Barksdale, Louisiana". And I remember he said, "Oh, one of my favorite
bases. How long you going to be there?" I said, "A couple of days". I kept wanting to say to
him, "Come on". Well he said, "Well, let me be the first to congratulate you, you're the next
Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force." And I hung up. I wanted to go open the door and yell
at the world. But, I said to my wife, we had four kids. I said, "We've got to call the kids". So
that was the first thing we did. They were in four different locations. Two were married. Then,
of course, a message went out to the Air Force, and by the next day, everybody knew it. I knew
that we had to move to Washington [District of Columbia] from Randolph, we lived here in San
Antonio. And so I knew it was going to be hectic. Phone calls started coming in.
Congratulations. Letters. Messages. My feet were off the ground.
Ouirk: How long were you the Chief Master Sergeant?
Gaylor: Two years to the day. At that time, it read that it was a two-year assignment
unless otherwise directed by the Chief of Staff. And it still reads that way, but now, it is not
uncommon to stay maybe three years or two years, nine months. It is sort of at the discretion of
the Chief of Staff.
Quirk: Now, when you were finished with that, did you have to retire after that?
Gaylor: Well, I had 3 1 years.
Quirk: Could you have stayed on?
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor bv Martin Quirk
Gaylor: Yeah, I could have stayed on for a year. But I knew that year would go fast. And
you know, once you are at the top, where do you go? I mean normally, you wouldn't go from
being President of the United States to being a Congressman. And so once you are the top, there
is only one. The Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force. Where would you go? General Davis
said to me, he said, "Well, if you want to stay on for a year and maybe go down to Maxwell Air
Force Base to the academy down there". I said, "No sir". I said, "I am ready to go". He said,
"Smart decision". I had already been offered a job at USAA.
Quirk: Oh, okay.
Gaylor: And so, everything led to me getting out. So, no, it was an easy call. I didn't
agonize over it.
Ouirk: I have a question for you. Although you were the highest ranked enlisted man in
the Air Force, did you still have to take orders from Junior Officers?
Gaylor: Let me see how to answer that because the question is phrased a bit awkwardly.
People believe that somebody of higher rank goes around ordering people. "Pick-up that
cigarette butt." "Shine my". It doesn't work that way. I had to extend the courtesies, sure. I
saluted Second Lieutenants, absolutely. [Gaylor still had to address officers as] "Sir", "Maam".
Well sure. But I worked for the Chief of Staff, so my chain of command came from the Chief of
Staff. So there would not have been a case where any other officer would have given me any
orders. You see what I'm saying?
Quirk: Yes.
Gaylor: It is just like if you work for Mary Smith at Sears and Roebuck [department
store], and some person who is a manager at Penney's [department store] walks by and tells you
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
to do something. You'd say, "Wait a minute". So it is the same thing. You deal with your chain
of command.
Quirk: That is a great analogy.
Gavlor: Yeah. [Thanks]
Quirk: What duties did you perform as the Chief Master Sergeant'! What do they do?
Gavlor: The job description is very general in nature, and yet, it is succinct. Here is what
it says, basically. "The Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force is responsible to the Chief of
Staff, to advise on all enlisted matters related to utilization, morale, and welfare of the enlisted
force". All enlisted matters. and there are no boundaries. There are no fence lines. All enlisted
matters.
Ouirk: That is really broad.
Gaylor: Oh, and purposely so. You can get involved in assignments, promotions,
utilizations, morale factors. Basically, you serve on a lot of powerful boards. I was on the
Commissary Board of Directors, the Base Exchange Board of Directors, the Soldiers' Home
Board of Directors, the US0 Board of Directors, the Uniform Board. 1 was on about nine
different boards. You have a tremendous amount of clout and authority. And, your job is not to
abuse it; to use it properly. You don't go bossing people around. But, I always said to myself,
"You are the eyes and the ears and the spokesperson of the entire enlisted force". At that time,
there were 465-thousand [enlisted personnel] at 135 bases, and they were [emphasis] all my
responsibility. Not to direct and supervise, but utilization, morale, and welfare.
Quirk: What programs did you sign into being during your t i~nea s Chief Master
Sergeant?
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
Gay lor: Well those issues I talked about. I would say I spent 90-percent of my time in
image, trying to recover the image we lost in Vietnam, drug and alcohol abuse, utilization of
women, the racial arena, leadership, leadership. My forte has always been leadership. If you ask
people who know me, "What is Gaylor famous for?", they would tell you he is quite noted as an
authority on leadership. And so, my job was to make sure that the Airman were receiving the
appropriate leadership so they could do their job in an uninhibited fashion. And so, I focused on
leadership. Formally, informally, visiting work units, shaking hands, giving talks. It is a
fishbowl existence. For two years, your life is not quite your own. You're constantly in a
fishbowl. Everywhere you go, people are watching you, interviewing you, talking to you,
seeking your autograph, having their picture taken with you. It's a fishbowl existence, and I
loved it. It was just a great challenge.
Ouirk: You mentioned some policies on women. What type of policies?
Gaylor: Let me give you some just demographics, statistics. Let's say, and these are
general type figures. Let's say that in 1970, women made up about one-percent of the enlisted
force. We decided, because recruitment was difficult, and re-enlistment was down, we decided
we had to bring in more women. Okay. At that time, women could only be used in seven career
fields. The traditional, quote, "female fields", medics, clerk, stenographer, flight attendant. The
decisions we had to make was, could women serve in other career fields in which they never
served before? Aircraft maintenance. Security Police. So, we were truly blazing a trail if you
will. By 1974, we went to about four-percent women. In 1977, we went to seven-percent. So,
suddenly, we had more women and we were trying to decide, "How can we most affectively use
them?" So part of my job was to, was to facilitate. And that is where, if 1 might go back to 1960
when I was in the WAF Basic Training Squadron, that experience paid-off. Because I think you
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor bv Martin Ouirk
can appreciate when we said, "We're gonna use women as aircraft maintenance7', you can
imagine what some of the men said. [Men would respond] "You've got to be kidding", "I aint
working with no damn woman", "Just what we need, a bunch of women dragging a tool box
down the flight line", "If you think I'm going to help her lift that tool box". You know, there
was a tremendous amount of opposition. And so, because of my experience, I was able to say,
"Hey, before you go mouthing off fellow, let me tell you something about women." "I've
watched them, I know what they can do". "I know how they can step-up to the plate". And so,
my experience helped me facilitate. Then, we made a very critical decision, a tremendous
decision. Prior to 1975, if a woman in the Air Force, officer or enlisted, became pregnant, the
conversation went like this. Doctor [speaking to the female Air Force member]. "Young lady,
you are pregnant". Air Force [speaking to the female Air Force member]. "Young lady, you're
out". Sometimes by the next day. You're pregnant, you're gone. [female Air Force member] "I
want to stay in". [Air Force] "You can't". 1975, we made the decision to allow them to remain
in, in an expectant mode. That was a tremendous decision!
Quirk: Yeah.
Gaylor: Because that meant we had to introduce maternity leave. Six weeks to allow her
to have the child. Maternity uniform, we had never had a maternity uniform, you've got to be
kidding. I heard "old-timers" say, "My God, what are they doing to my Air Force7"? "Must be
time for me to get out7'. So it was an exciting time. We were making decisions that had never
been made, and I was right in the middle of all of that. My job was to ease that, to facilitate it, to
educate it, to explain it. And so I stood in front of audiences all over the Air Force, and believe
me, I took some hits. Not everybody loved and adored me. One guy yelled out when I told him
I worked for you, the enlisted men and women. He yelled out in a theater, "If you are working
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
for me, you are fired!" He didn't like what I was saying. And so it was a time of opposition,
and over-emotional reaction. But my job was to say, "This is what we are going to do". "We're
going to do this". "And if you can't handle it, adios".
Quirk: So, you were in agreement with those decisions? You were basically behind
them?
Gaylor: Well, you know, if you work for somebody. [giving an example] I work for you,
you are the general. And you say, "Okay Gaylor, we are coming out with a maternity uniform".
Okay, I say, "Sir, I want to go on record to disagree, I don't think we ought to do it." "I
disagree". So, you allow me to speak my mind, and after hearing my dissent, you say, "We're
going to do it Gaylor, I heard your thought". Now it is my job to salute smartly and support it. I
can't go stand in front of an audience and say, "the Chief of Staff said we are going to do this,
and I don't like it". Why, he would get somebody else. So, you are not a mouth-piece. But we
have a saying in the Air Force, "At some point, you salute smartly and go do what you are told".
In other words, if I opposed something, I told him, not the Air Force. That would have been
inappropriate.
Ouirk: Did you receive any awards or decorations during your career?
Gavlor: Yes. I received the Air Force Commenclation Medal, in about 1968 or something
like that. That at that time was the highest enlisted peace-time award. That was given to those
who excelled in their performance. Then I was given a cluster to that. Instead of giving you two
medals, they give you a cluster instead of a second award. Meanwhile, in the late '60s, they
came out with a Meritorious Service Medal, which was once step above the Commendation
Medal. And I received that and a cluster. And then when I retired I was given a Legion of Merit,
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Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Ouirk
which is the seventh highest award of all, and the highest peace-time award. So I was awarded
the Legion of Merit and I wear it now when I wear my dress uniform.
Quirk: During your time in the Air Force, did you have a role model that you tried to
model yourself after?
Gaylor: Yes, oh sure. Going all the way back to my early days. When I was at Waco, and
I had been in the Air Force about two years, I always played a lot of baseball and softball. And,
Bobby Brooks was our third-baseman. He was also my supervisor. He was older than I was. I
was, then, about 19 or 20, and he was probably 27 or 29. And I thought he was just the greatest
role model. He did something in 1950 that no one did. He took college courses at Baylor
University, paid for out of his own pocket. Of course in those days they had no tuition
reimbursement. So that was another thing that I thought, "Wow", "he's doing that on his own".
One night en route to school, he had a little Crosley car, a little small car, and a drunk [driver] hit
him head-on and killed him. He was the first person that I ever knew personally that was killed,
and I was devastated because he was my idol. He was a great ballplayer, just a great guy. Later,
there was a guy named Willard R. McCully, that I thought had it together. I worked for a couple
of officers that I really revered and thought highly of. I have never been without a role model.
And General Dave Jones, of course, God, he opened doors for me. Had he not picked me to be
his Sergeant Major in 1970, my career would have ended in somewhat of an oblivion. He was
not just my role model, but my sponsor, and he opened the door for me. You know, I believe
that if there is an existing talent, in my case there must have been, that somebody eventually will
spot it and open doors for you. I suggest that doors aren't going to open if you have no existing
talent. And so my message today is, develop talent and skill and abilities, and eventually
somebody will allow you to showcase it. But if you just tread water through life, those doors
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gavlor bv Martin Quirk
will not open. Unfortunately there are a lot of people today that want success, but they are not
willing to work for it. You've got to go out and get it, and I did that. I did a lot on my own. I
became a student of leadership because I wanted to be. And I always had a good attitude. I
never, ever, ever complained. And I never found fault. Whatever they asked me to do [I did]. I
had two remote assignments. I left a wife for a year with a two-year-old, one-year-old, and six-week-
old. And so, Selma and I have been married 52 years. I never turned down an
opportunity, nor did I ever grouse over what I was asked to do. I became a role model to others.
I know that to be a fact. I consider it paying back what others did for me.
Quirk: That was, actually, you just answered my next question. What do you do now?
Gavlor: I retired from USAA in 1995. And because of my position as Chief Master
Sergeant of the Air Force (there have only been 14 of us, and four are dead). So we are truly a
small fraternity. In Air Force channels, we are famous. They name things after us. The
Airmen's dining hall at Charleston, South Carolina is named, The Robert D. Guylor.
Dormitories, Dyess [Air Force Base], Abilene, Texas. Barksdale, the leadership school at
Randolph is the Robert D. Gaylor Airmen Leuciership School. And I am telling you that not to
boast, but my position is quite famous in the Air Force. You mention Gaylor, and, [people
would often respond] "Oh, you met him, you know him?" In 1995 I literally threw my hat back
in the Air Force ring by announcing, "I'm available if somebody is looking for a speaker". And,
in 2003,I went to 41 bases. In 2004, I went to 32. Already this year, I've been to 19. I leave
Wednesday for Shaw, South Carolina. So I'm 100-percent involved with the Air Force.
Quirk: Yes, I know you are because last week you were in Philadelphia.
Gaylor: Yeah, I am out and about. I talk. I go to a base, and they have my itinerary, and I
visit work units and they assemble the airmen. I am a conduit, a link between the Air Force of
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
my day and the Air Force of today. I am in a position, with this memory base that I have, to
answer questions similar [to yours]. And by the way, you have great questions.
Quirk: Thank You.
Gav lor: You make the interview very easy because I have been asked dumb questions that
are hard to answer. Your questions, obviously, are right-on. I get questions from audiences,
"What was in like in 1949 to be in the Air Force"? "What do you remember about getting your
blue uniform"? "What was the first chevron you ever wore"? "What did your wife think when
you were sent to Korea, and she had three kids"? I get those questions. I can't talk about the
policies of today. I am not in the know on that. But I can talk about how we got where we are
today. And basically, I find myself today saying some of the things I say to groups at bases. 1'11
say some of those same things at Shaw, because there is a tremendous interest right now in
heritage. 1'11 give you an aside. Friday night at Lackland, 25 of the chiefs promoted in 1959
were at their 45'h anniversary. And I wish you could have been there. Their ages were from 79
to 88.
Quirk: Wow.
Gay lor: And they are called, The Charter Chiefs. There were 626 [originally], there are
87 living, and 25 were able to make it. And I was the speaker. I just talked about in the '50s
when the grades were announced and how I felt, and how I looked up to them. I put the spotlight
on them. How I felt, "Wow". They blazed the trail, they were the pioneers. They got the rank
going. And so, it was a great evening of nostalgia and reminiscing. And some of these old
codgers were on their canes. And it was just a great night. I think we have learned that if you
don't learn from the past, you're destined to repeat it. I think we are saying you can learn from
what went on before and not make some of the same mistakes.
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
Quirk: Well, Chief Gaylor, I thank you very much for this interview. On behalf of
UTSA and myself, I thank you.
Gaylor: I loved doing it.
Quirk: It was really informative, and I thank you for doing it.
Gaylor: I loved doing it. I will be 75 in May. People ask me, "Why do you do this?"
Some even say, "Do you get paid for this?" No. "Well, you come all the way to McGuire [Air
Force Base] in New Jersey for nothing?" I said, " I get reimbursement of travel, and I get a little
per diem that they offer." But I say, "I wouldn't take pay if they offered it to me." [they ask]
"Well why do you do it?" I said, "I just feel I want to pay back what the Air Force did for me",
as corny as it sounds. I just feel that obligation. [they ask] "Well how long to you plan to keep
doing it?" I say, "Well, two things, if my health holds up and if I keep getting invites." You
know, if the invites stop, obviously 1'11 stop doing it. But right now I am turning down as many
as I am able to accept. I guarantee you, the odds are good when I get home there will be a call or
an e-mail. I just got invited to Osan, Korea.
Quirk: Really?
Gavlor: In February of next year. So I am already working next year. I've got three
engagements next year already. And so, because of my notoriety as a speaker, I am quite noted
as a speaker, and because of my background, and the position I held, I am quite in demand. The
Philadelphia thing was a comnlercial. I do a lot of that. I spoke at the Rotary Club in Marble
Falls, Texas a couple of weeks ago. On March 3oth, I am speaking at the Department of
Transportation, at the Flying L Ranch in Bandera [Texas]. I spoke at Lincoln Mercury
[automobile] dealership. I am noted as a motivational, entertaining speaker. I am not hurting for
invitations. I'm going to Germany, April 7Ih, for five days. So I am at the point in my life where
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Interview with Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force Robert D. Gaylor by Martin Quirk
I am now having fun. I am having the time of my life. To be able to record this, to me, is a
privilege, not a chore. It is a privilege. When you said you wanted to do a historical
documentary, I said, "Yes!", "Immediately".
Quirk: It has been a privilege interviewing you. You have done so much. I really
appreciate you taking the time out to do this for me.
Gavlor: Well, as I said, you did a great job preparing.
End of Interview
MS 315. Veterans History Project